Relation Between Plants ,algae And Phosphates/fert's

[Zikofski]

Okay so today after discovering from a few people high phosphates has nothing to do with Algae, i thought i shall be running a few tests on my tank to prove this point, i have discovered today that my tank was running high phosphate beyond the scale of the JBL PO4 test kit, and have bought some phosphate remover for the filter, this also is combined with a nitrate remover to so i shall also see how this pans out with my plants.
 
I shall be doing some tests with the water to see if phosphates drop, along with my nitrates as well, how my algae grows or stops? and also see how my plants react? will they show deficiency's or die off completely.
 
I dont think there is much information on the internet about this as when i google the relation between phosphates plants and algae, i just get phosphates need to be low, and in the region of 0.02ppm to 0.05ppm  this is also backed up by the JBL PO4 test kit yet people keep telling me phosphates is needed for plant growth which is true.
 
Now for those who know fertilisers and the EI method, you add nitrate and phosphate in the forms of 

• Nitrate (KNO3)
• Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)

This brings me to a question why not just add NO3 and PO4
 
Now most of my research other than being random googling has come from these two websites
 
http/blog.fluidsensoronline.com/calculators/estimative-index/
http/www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=dosing-with-dry-salts
 
On the second website it demonstrates that light will only go to a certain point in order to promote faster growth, beyond that light no mater what you do growth will not increase from what it already is, from that they discovered the optimal ferts to put in. Now this is based weekly so they state 3ppm of phosphate per week, divide that by 7, thats 0.43ppm per day of phosphate so in theory please correct me if i am wrong, if i have 3ppm of phosphate in my tank and keep adding 3ppm every day that extra phosphate is;

• waste of phosphate
• contribute to algae

Again i know that ferts them selves do not contribute to algae, could this be the reason for not just adding in NO3 and PO4 because poor maintenance, over feading is also going to create these two key ingredients in forms that may help algae. so altho KNO3 and KH2PO4 dose not create algae, will NO3 and PO4 seperate of the K, and KH2 do create algae, now i am not chemist and not good at chemistry so this whole theory is probably wrong but ye worth a shot.
 
I have added the product to take out the NO3 and PO4 but should not take out the KNO3 and KH2PO4 which the plants will still use? am i right or wrong again please someone confirm this for me, Algae should reduce and plants continue to grow this is me proving this theory wrong or right either way i have no idea just a theory.
 
I will post pictures and stats as and when i see things nothing else in the tank is changing i shall continue to dose my ferts daily, but the tests i will cary out are
 

• Nitrates + Phosphates before adding the fertiliser
• Nitrates + Phosphates 1 hour after adding the fertiliser
• Nitrates + Phosphates 3 Hours into my light cycle of 6 Hours
• Nitrates + Phosphates at the end of the 6 Hour light cycle

let's hope my plants continue to grow and my algae dose not either or i hope this will help me and everyone else understand how fertilisers and Nitrate and Phosphates contribute or do not contribute to algae
 
I am not concentrating on the old algae growth but new algae growth on clean items of the tank (Plant's, Rock's and Wood)
 
please anyone with a view bad or good please comment again this is for everyone including me to understand this better i consider my self a (noob) when it comes to the relationship of plants ferts and algae

 

[liamhuckle]

Will be watching this as im suffering with algea to grrr

 

[This Old Spouse]

Yes, I was one who was contemplating on another thread the relationship of phosphates and plants, since I am having a horrible battle with BBA and now hair algae. 

 

[snazy]

Ok, once you've mastered the CO2 for your light amount, providing you are injecting the highest possible dose without casualties or strss, then nutritients come in place. So consider that hight phosphates in the tank, create demand for more nitrogen(NO3), more nitrogen creates demand for more CO2, more CO2 creates demand for more nitrogen.. more potassium creates demand for more nitrogen.....more nitrogen and CO2 creates demand for more traces...and so on... So although people are right to say that extra nutritients isn't the cause of algae, by improper dosing you may create demand for something that you constantly run out from and you don't know which one, possibly it even changes all the time.
So based on that you need to have some sort of balance too whithout driving demands of that or the other. When the plant mass increases, it's logical to increase that too, but one has to start from somewhere.
You certainly need to have some level of phosphate in the tank for the plants, but it's possible on theory to be at a level, when it may cause a problem. You either need to add more CO2 and nitrogen, but then the CO2 depends how much your fish can handle, so you reach a closed door, then next you'll be told to decrease your light....by the same people that told you that exteme levels of phosphate don't cause algae.
Instead, you can do several massive water changes to lower the phosphates, and all nutritients, then start dosing from scratch and concentrate on what's needed rather than some formulas. You may need to add more of some nutritients than even an EI one suggests, and less of others possibly.
 
So personally I wouldn't stop the KNO3 dosing in your case(because you are injecting CO2). You may need to monitor the phosphates. Once you run out of P04, green spot algae will apear. So you'll know...l
Have a look at this method how to identify what your particular tank is using from certain nutritients if you are feeling like experimenting a slightly different approach(which isn't limiting nutritients, just has a method of determining how much you need without wasting or creating shortages) This article suggests the NO3 to be in the form of KNO3 and no additional K dosing, because K is another nutritient that is counterproductive when in higher dose, creating demand for more nitrogen,same for phosphate.
 
http/www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/69737-method-controlled-imbalances-summary.html

 

[Chad]

I just did this test...I removed the C02 from my little 6 gallon tank. I'm working on a video of it now. Suffice it to say I'm 100% convinced that C02 causes algae now! It took less than a week to grow nuts and after two it was a mess. Of course the cherry shrimp fry are now going nuts but I'm working on removing it now and just hooked the C02 back up again.

 

[Zikofski]

yes that all sounds great what  i plan for what i would like to know why has no one come up with tests for all the kind of ferts needed? or have they so we can easily monitor this haha, but yes i am glad to know that i should see GSA soon ish, i remember a year ago when i did not have co2 nor was i adding in ferts i was getting GSA since adding the co2 + ferts i no longer have it but BBA and possible stag horn and possibly brown algae, i to think it is all linked to co2 but then i have been running my co2 on as high as i can for days now to no avail yellow on drop checker fish look like there about to drop but still swim and eat fine just breath a little heavier slightly stressed but not enough to cause any damage, and ye still new algae forming. i know how to get rid of the algae but its just going to grow back so its understanding what substance i am missing or lacking or over doing to create this algae like you said could be one thing or a changing thing but i shall read through the link you said should be a good read

 

[snazy]

To trigger GSA, you need to be adding KNO3 and CO2 and nothing else!!! When starting, you need to restart the tank via water changes, making sure you are first at almost 0 level of phosphates, so the process takes as short as possible, more likely just a few days if done right .
Then if you read that entire article, it suggests that the amount of KNO3 added until reaching GSA, combined from each day, is the amount that one needs to be adding weekly from now on(separated in 3 doses, or whatever schedule). That's the method to calculate KNO3. This way, you should not need to add phosphate, besides what the livestock/food provides, and by day 7 each week, is when it should run out, but then you'd be doing a water change, resetting and starting over. So he keeps the tank to "near GSA" stage because he thinks at this level, other algae don't thrive and GSA is easily resolved by a bit more phosphate, only if needed.
However, he does say that certain plants need more phosphate, like anubias, microsorum, etc...So a tank that has a lot of these, may need way higher levels than what even a EI method suggests as initial dose. Hence he's got a similar method of calculating how much phosphate a tank needs too, based on current light/CO2 and plant mass, which he calls the PO4 protocol, which intends to trigger a third type of algae when correctly done.
 His methods are only suitable for high light and injected CO2 according to him, which is your case, providing you've increased CO2 to the max, which you've done.
I actually triggered GSA ages ago without realizing what happened and how, but now the picture is clear why I got infested with it and I had no other algae for the entire period the GSA was flourishing. But I couldn't do much of the other suggestions, because I am dealing with low light and liquid carbon tank only. I think I've stopped the BBA though. It isn't growing anymore. I've been cutting what I could trying to avoid melting my anubias again with the Easy carbo and savaging the plants to nothing.

 

[Zikofski]

okay yes i have been reading through it im a s low reader and still half way through but so far i have come up with this,
 
 
add 1 gram of KNO3 per 50ml
 
6.6 gram's per day for 330L tank, Till you get GSA
 
Day 1
50% water change
 
Day 2
6.6 gram of KNO3
 
Day 3
6.6 gram of KNO3
 
Day 4
6.6 gram of KNO3
 
Day 5
6.6 gram of KNO3
 
Day 6
6.6 gram of KNO3
 
Day 7
50% water change
Double the KNO3 for next week
 
When you get GSA, for example on the 4th day, weekly dose will be 26.4 grams daily dose is 3.78 gams
 
which i shall do over the next few days/weeks as i A need to buy the salt's which brings me to where do you all recommend i get the salts from? and also i have a question over test kits, my API master test kit comes with nitrate's BUT what dose it test NO3 and N04? or just NO3 and another thing, i shake the living hell out of the bottle and i get near 80ppm, now in the LFS today they said i only had 15 ppm, nitrate, confusing hey, now i just googled it and first post comes up someone with the same, but he found out if i shake it less he gets 15ppm again so to speak, so i shall try this but then that brings me to question What reading is more correct? when i shake a lot i get like 25 to 30ppm in tap water, and near 80ppm in tank water? i shall test without shaking heavy, see what i get from tap and tank, another thing to note the LFS was using JBL test kits which state on them NO3

 

[snazy]

Well, the nitrAte tests are the most unreliable of all. Just forget about it.
Before you start the KNO3 protocol, make sure you've got the phosphates down to almost nothing. You don't want to drag the KNO3 "protocol" by not reducing them first, as you'd be dosing KNO3 for weeks
 

When you get GSA, for example on the 4th day, weekly dose will be 26.4 grams daily dose is 3.78 gams

 
Yes, if you've dosed 4 times(4 days) 6.6g KNO3 until you notice GSA, then your weekly KNO3 dose is 6.6x4=26.4g. Then you spread that in daily doses(3.8g) or 3xweekly(8.8), whatever schedule you approach...
Don't forget that you need to start with a tank/glass clean of GSA if you currently have it, so you don't get confused

 

[Zikofski]

yes i understand that i missed a day on the list haha and ye, at the moment i have added phosphate remover stuff in my filter to remove that quickly, but i need to buy these salts KNO3 and stuff as at the moment all i have is fertiliser from Aqua essentials and ye i have no idea what is in it something that i don't like tbh. i do not get any GSA at moment so no need to clean but i will anyway to be sure


ye another question, sorry haha how do you add the ferts? just put say 8.8grams, of KNO3 direct into the tank or into water first, for example the EI method says to mix the salts together and into a 1L bottle sorta thing, could you not just put the amount directly into the tank?

 

[snazy]

Yes, mixed ferts don't work, because even KNO3 isn't just KNO3 from Seachem for example.
 

could you not just put the amount directly into the tank?

 
I never used dry ferts myself, but that's what he's suggesting I think. People mix them together because they don't want to measure daily doses each day using some scales. But for the purpose of this I think you just throw the daily dose directly in the tank.


Agh, and do at least a couple of 50% water changes prior too, so you know you aren't overloaded on any nutritient that the stupid tests can't test for you. That's why he suggests 50% water change prior, but for most folks that have dosed for months some levels will be out of whack and 50% water change will be just a nibble.

 

[Zikofski]

kl okay see now he mentions about adding PO4 but i cant find it online in its purest form i only find potasium phosphate KH2PO4 will this not cause problems with the KH2


yes the only concern i have with a 50% water change is my water contains some PO4 about 0.8ppm, but you need it 0? i guess i could stop dosing fert's from today, try and get my co2 and flow stable until my salts arrive. do the water change early in the morning, but leave my phosphate and nitrate remover stuff in my filter through out the day and test for phosphate when they reach 0 take out the stuff and start from there as when i add the KNO3 the stuff in the filter is just going to take out the KNO3

 

[snazy]

You need to test your tap water for PO4 as well.
Note that he is suggesting that one should not need to add PO4 in most cases because in most cases enough is supplied via fish food, water changes, etc..
So he suggests using the KNO3 protocol first until you trigger GSA. Then when you resume to normal weekly dosing of everything afterwards, you should not have GSA appearing anymore as long as you are dosing as per the protocol+injected CO2+micros.
 
Only if you have GSA keeps blooming then, he suggests using the PO4 protoco to figure what extra one needs to dose. He suggests adding KH2PO4 and KNO3 as per that protocol, to figure how much more PO4 is needed to stop it in the same fashion, then spread the dose used to stop it, for the entire week. He suggests using KH2PO4, because other forms contain sulfates that are no good for the system, from what I can remember reading it. This should be addressed somewhere too.
He also suggest, that there's a scenario when one will not have a GSA bloom, but some plants may show it or have higher demands for PO4(like anubias, microsorum, cryptocoryne sp and marsilea were his examples), then you can add very small amount via a syringe near the plant from time to time. But this will be small enough not to affect any ppm.
 
 

 

 

[snazy]

Sorry, my bad. He actually says if you need to add K, to supply it from either KNO3 or KHPO4, but not sure what he uses for PO4 only.

 

[Zikofski]

hmm okay yes i understand that, i do have crypts and anubias i also finished reading now, and he has stated at the end the algae that i have the causes can be co2, ce, Kh now i have NEVER checked my Kh or my Ca levels in the tank so it could be those as i am sure my co2 is constant and good around my tank
 
okay but if i where to do this alone he suggest if i am correct in understanding and from what you say, (macro) composes of KNO3 only and (Micro) trace elements along with obviously Co2 light
 
i hate the fact AE don't display what is in there ferts so i know exactly what i am adding in already but again from what i have learn over the next few days i should see GDA appear as my filter takes out the phosphate's