Re-starting 15 gallon, 1st time with sand

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I thought the new leaves on the sword might be failing at first too, but it is an echinodorus 'rose', and the leaves don't actually look dead. The plant did look way more green than I expected when it arrived, so maybe this is the reddish colour it's meant to have coming through?

Limnophila sessiliflora is living up to its fast growing reputation, can't wait to see big clouds of the stuff at the surface;

I think the hydrocotyle tripartita 'Japan' might have stealthily grown more than I've realised, but is still very delicate and hopefully will be able to see more growth if I compare later photos to this one;

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Something keeps uprooting pieces of my rotala 'bonsai', probably the guppies and platy fry, since I often drop the shrimp food in that area, and the fish probably pull it up while stealing shrimp food

Vallis and frogbit are combining their powers to create a dense jungle section;

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Thought better of planting new plants without seeking planting advice! @mbsqw1d , because of your previous post and photo, I ordered some alternanthera reineckii 'mini' I had been planning to put it behind the hydrocotyle 'japan' but since you say it needs the light and to avoid the vallis/frogbit jungle, maybe if I shift the left piece of dragonstone slightly, and plant it along the front there where the dragonstone is? I can create an airline tubing corral to try to keep the floating plants from blocking the light to that section?

So new plants ordered are;

Alternanthera reineckii 'mini'
Weeping moss
ludwegia glandulosa
crytocoryne beckettii 'petchii'
cyperus helferi
lobelia cardinalis
hygrophilia 'siamensis 53B'

All ordered from pro-shrimp, so some are in-vitro, some are EU grown and shrimp safe

I'd like to put one of the plants between the end of the big wood piece and the hydrocotyle in the front right corner, maybe the lobelia would be alright there? If not, I'm sure the crypt could cope with the lower light in that section.
I'd quite like to put something between the rotala and sessiliflora too, to break that up and look more distinct, like the alternanthera, but then it might get shaded out by the sessiliflora. I think the cyperus helferi is a background plant, and there's a gap to the left of the sword right now it might work in?

Any suggestions or recommendations welcome since I've no experience with any of these plants other than trying alternanthera once (and not the mini), some basic crypts, and I'm sure the weeping moss is not much different care wise than the java moss I'm used to.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Thank you! Lets hope. I do still see moults lying around, so any time there's a long stretch where I don't lose any, I'm hopeful that the worst has passed! Also nice to see that other people who've kept shrimp have the same panic moments when shrimp start getting super active, there's always a moment of "wait, is there a problem with the water??" And I'm checking that it's only males swimming about while I'm getting things ready to do a water test, just in case!

Just took some update photos of the plants so I can compare growth over the next weeks. Have notice that some of the vallis I added recently is getting red in the centre? Is this normal? @mbsqw1d ? It doesn't really look as though it's failing, it's odd.
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The red tinge in vallisernia is pretty normal as this is either a sign it’s getting lots of light or it’s a leave dying and will fall or break off.

There is one or two varieties of vallisernia that do have red leaves but mostly they’re green.

You will have vallisernia leaves dying and will fall off at some point soon.

Vallisernia leaves are always falling off but new shoots and leaves will soon take place.

Pretty normal and before you know it you’ll have a wall of vallisernia along the sides of tank.

If you do want to get rid of some in future simply cut at runner stem and pull out the vallisernias you don’t want.

I used to do this by the handful tbh, and always thought it a bit of a waste but it’s pretty normal with vallisernia but don’t pull the plants out fast otherwise it makes a mess and sand or debris will be all over the water column, take your time.

 

[mbsqw1d]

Thank you! Lets hope. I do still see moults lying around, so any time there's a long stretch where I don't lose any, I'm hopeful that the worst has passed! Also nice to see that other people who've kept shrimp have the same panic moments when shrimp start getting super active, there's always a moment of "wait, is there a problem with the water??" And I'm checking that it's only males swimming about while I'm getting things ready to do a water test, just in case!

Just took some update photos of the plants so I can compare growth over the next weeks. Have notice that some of the vallis I added recently is getting red in the centre? Is this normal? @mbsqw1d ? It doesn't really look as though it's failing, it's odd.
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Were they alreeady that colour or are they turning red?
Some of the leaves on mine have tinged red due to being at the surface and under intense light. Bit of a plant's defence mechanism, like its own suncream. Or, it be struggling to uptake the same level of nitrate that they had been doing via their root system. Always a problem moving a root feeder around, the roots have to establish themselves again and the rest of the plant can end up starving a bit

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

The red tinge in vallisernia is pretty normal as this is either a sign it’s getting lots of light or it’s a leave dying and will fall or break off.

There is one or two varieties of vallisernia that do have red leaves but mostly they’re green.

You will have vallisernia leaves dying and will fall off at some point soon.

Vallisernia leaves are always falling off but new shoots and leaves will soon take place.

Pretty normal and before you know it you’ll have a wall of vallisernia along the sides of tank.

If you do want to get rid of some in future simply cut at runner stem and pull out the vallisernias you don’t want.

I used to do this by the handful tbh, and always thought it a bit of a waste but it’s pretty normal with vallisernia but don’t pull the plants out fast otherwise it makes a mess and sand or debris will be all over the water column, take your time.

Were they alreeady that colour or are they turning red?
Some of the leaves on mine have tinged red due to being at the surface and under intense light. Bit of a plant's defence mechanism, like its own suncream. Or, it be struggling to uptake the same level of nitrate that they had been doing via their root system. Always a problem moving a root feeder around, the roots have to establish themselves again and the rest of the plant can end up starving a bit

Ah okay, thank you guys! There have been a few bits that have broken off. But on the whole, the roots and stuff still look healthy to me.

Had to look back in the thread and check, and it was only last Friday that I added the vallis, which @mbsqw1d kindly sent to me wub: thank you dude!) so it's bound to struggle a bit since it's newer growth from an established tank, spent a couple of days in the post, then wound up planted here. It has root tabs and liquid ferts, so hopefully it'll bounce back. Since the roots that I can see still look healthy, and I think there might be new growth, I'm sure it'll be okay!

It was green when I put it in, so hopefully it's just adjusting.
First planted;

Six days later, today;

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Tank as of tonight, will be adding alternanthera later or tomorrow, probably tomorrow.

The vallis, where it had gone red did have a lot of broken off bits of leaves. Still hoping it'll bounce back though. The rest of it doesn't look bad! You can see growth on the sessiliflora too, the tallest piece was level with the top of the sponge filter output the other day.

But, I only had one blue dream shrimp left out of four I bought just before my plant poisoning disaster. I've just seen her since I was moving things around, and she's berried!! First one I've seen berried since this started. I did find a red male dead yesterday though, so really trying not to get my hopes too high, but I was already attached given she's the last of the blues, and now that she's berried... aahhhhhhhh!! I'm hopeful, but trying to temper that so I won't be too devastated if I lose her, but I know I would be anyway.

Shifting the dragonstone slightly revealed a load of shrimp moults though, so some of them must be okay, surely? And this blue one has grown into an adult in my tank, despite losing the other three. Man, I really hope she makes it. Couldn't believe it when I saw she was carrying eggs!

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I also don't want to tempt fate by saying this, but haven't found any dead shrimp since September 2nd. Crossing fingers and hoping that the worst has passed, but cautious about it too. It would be nice if the rest of the colony survives, there are a couple of gorgeous deep red females there that I'm really hoping survive and show up berried soon. I have seen the males dancing a few times. I always panic a little when the males start dancing and test the water, but parameters have been good and it was just the males swimming around, so I'm hopeful that I'll spot a berried female soon.

I found I was wrong and actually did lose a shrimp on September 5th, but I did seem to have a spell where I wasn't losing so many, so I'd hoped the worst had passed, especially with seeing a berried female.

But, with the cleaning yesterday, I found two dead shrimp, then another male was dead later in the evening. Today, another dead male.

The tank is clean, the plants are in-vitro or UK grown, I've been giving them beta g twice a week. I don't ever touch the tank without washing my hands first, and I'm not sharing equipment between tanks anymore.

However, I did switch the canister filter from the contaminated tank to the shrimp tank, and now wondering if I made a huge mistake doing that. Could the filter itself be contaminated with the pesticide? I don't know whether I'm still losing shrimp because they were exposed to the pesticide for that time, or if I'd re-introduced it with the canister filter. I rinsed it before adding it, but I didn't bleach or deep clean or anything since cycled filter.

Could the pesticides be that bad on the plants that not only were those plants toxic to shrimp, but the pesticide contaminated the whole tank, including the filter?? Am I being overly paranoid??

@essjay , @seangee @Ch4rlie , I'd really appreciate you guy's opinions. I'm reaching the end of my rope with this, it's making me sad every day when I find yet more dead shrimp, and I'm losing hope that the colony will make it. Still finding moults too though, and that berried female is alive. But I'm feeling like a terrible aquarist who went to a lot of trouble and expense to try to fix my mistake and put them in a clean tank, only to add a contaminated filter and doom the survivors. What do you think??

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I've removed the canister, just in case, even if that's shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted. Also about to do a large water change and substrate clean, just because I have to try.

Might cause a mini cycle since the only filtration on there now is a single sponge filter, recently added and brand new, and this tank has the heaviest bioload of my tanks. Five adult guppies, eight fry, plus the shrimp which need feeding more often since new tank. Plus one female is about to drop fry, she's a rectangle, and another will be in a couple of weeks. I don't have any more uncontaminated filters. Hoping the new plant growth from the sessiliflora and frogbit especially will help pull it through, and will order another filter, just not sure what yet.

 

[Essjay]

It is hard to say if the filter was contaminated or not.

But based on my exprience a few years ago, the baby shrimp from the berried female may well survive. I had moved mine to the QT so I could monitor her better and one morning found her dead but with a lot of live shrimplets in the tank. Most of them survived through to adulthood.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

It is hard to say if the filter was contaminated or not.

But based on my exprience a few years ago, the baby shrimp from the berried female may well survive. I had moved mine to the QT so I could monitor her better and one morning found her dead but with a lot of live shrimplets in the tank. Most of them survived through to adulthood.

Thank you, I hope she survives long enough to even have them, really worried that she won't

I feel like such an idiot. I went to so much trouble, and spent a small fortune I really shouldn't have, to try to save them, then moved the canister filter over and might have completely ruined their chances.

If the rest of the colony dies off, I won't get shrimp again for a long time. These pesticides are awful. I love my shrimp so much, and they were doing so well until I added those plants. I try so hard to keep my tanks well, I really do. But it's been one disaster after another, and not sure how many more I can take.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Hmm, that’s a tough one.

Sorry to hear you’ve been losing a few more shrimps

It’s hard to determine if chemically treated plants can spread to filter, substrate or tank glass etc.

Is the new filter canister the same size as the one you’ve taken off? Just worried about filtration is all.

Think putting the old canister back on will make little difference, as you say it’s closing the barn doors after the horses had bolted

It’s now what you are most confident with doing that counts at this point and you actually have a good grasp of what might and what might not work so our advice may not count for much, we probably just saying what you already know or suspect anyhow.

Seeing what you’ve been through it’s hardly surprising you’re having a bit of doubt at the moment but stick with it and am certain that you will find a way and get though this.

Don’t forget, we know you’re trying your best and you’ve not done a thing wrong.

It may be the case that the adults have been effected by this a bit too much and may not be able to overcome this. But it’s all subjective at this stage.

I think now that you’ve taken the plants out and it’s a case of waiting for the effects of this to wear off, got a feeling it’s not a permanent thing and might take a wee while and hopefully the shrimps will overcome those, especially new shrimplets as they might have not been effected.

Do what you think is best and am sure you’ll make the right choices.

Chin up eh, we know it’s not that easy

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Hmm, that’s a tough one.

Sorry to hear you’ve been losing a few more shrimps

It’s hard to determine if chemically treated plants can spread to filter, substrate or tank glass etc.

Is the new filter canister the same size as the one you’ve taken off? Just worried about filtration is all.

Think putting the old canister back on will make little difference, as you say it’s closing the barn doors after the horses had bolted

It’s now what you are most confident with doing that counts at this point and you actually have a good grasp of what might and what might not work so our advice may not count for much, we probably just saying what you already know or suspect anyhow.

Seeing what you’ve been through it’s hardly surprising you’re having a bit of doubt at the moment but stick with it and am certain that you will find a way and get though this.

Don’t forget, we know you’re trying your best and you’ve not done a thing wrong.

It may be the case that the adults have been effected by this a bit too much and may not be able to overcome this. But it’s all subjective at this stage.

I think now that you’ve taken the plants out and it’s a case of waiting for the effects of this to wear off, got a feeling it’s not a permanent thing and might take a wee while and hopefully the shrimps will overcome those, especially new shrimplets as they might have not been effected.

Do what you think is best and am sure you’ll make the right choices.

Chin up eh, we know it’s not that easy

Thank you, I do really appreciate you saying that I have a good grasp, and that this isn't my fault. It does help! Especially when I'm beating myself up for moving the canister filter over there, and for adding the plants from the store in the first place, even though I didn't know about the possibility of pesticides at the time! It still took me too long to suspect the new plants when shrimp began dying off. And I wish I'd considered the possibility of the canister filter being contaminated before moving it. I've definitely made mistakes, but I suppose pretty easily made ones in this case, since the pesticide thing isn't that widely known, and it's also pretty unknown just how much they can spread and contaminate. It might not be the canister at all, but I'm still going to remove and replace it, just in case it makes any difference.

Even if you don't have info I don't already know, and you might!! I'm still quite new really - it still helps me a lot to hear opinions and thoughts from you guys, and the support and encouragement helps too. I don't really have any one in RL who keeps fish and understands, who wouldn't be bored to tears. My dad asked how my tanks were yesterday, which he rarely does and he doesn't often look at them either. When I said I'd lost two more shrimp, he just said he wouldn't bother getting them again. He doesn't get it, or really understand what's going on or what appeal shrimp have, or how much I love them.

Getting support and advice from other hobbyists who understand is a big deal, even if there isn't a magical fix for the problem, you know? It just helps.

Yep, the cycle might be a problem. I'm going to move some fish around. Will go to LFS this week, so I'll take some youngsters from the 57 gallon, and perhaps some of the young platies I have in my tank to the store. Move the four bronze cories from quarantine into the 57 gallon, then move fry and maybe an adult guppy or two from this 15 gallon into the 12 gallon quarantine. That's cycled now, and should be able to handle that bioload. That'll knock the bioload in this 15 gallon down to the shrimp (negligable bioload except for feeding, and they eat that up quickly), and perhaps four adult guppies and some newborn fry most likely. Low bioload plus lots of plants should help.

It might be just fine at the moment with current bioload and the single sponge filter, since that and the rest of the tank has had some time to grow BB. Plus the plants are growing well, so that's almost like a planted, seeded cycle, right?

This is the canister filter I was using: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01N4BC1R5/?tag=

For a cheap, small canister, it has been pretty good, and does remove a lot of muck. I think I'll get the same one again to add to this tank. The sponge, plants and water changes should be enough to manage for now, but I like to overfilter to be on the safe side, and of course as they have fry and they grow, the bioload will increase, so I feel safer with two. No room on the back for a HOB, so a HOB would have to go on the side which I don't love, internals have the gaps in the sides that risk sucking shrimplets or guppy fry into them. So getting the same canister again appeals since I just need to cover the intake, and it reaches low down and helps remove mulm from the sand, and houses a lot of media.

I'll keep on top of testing and water changes of course. Not going to let the water parameters get out of control, even it means I'm back to daily water changes. Would rather do that than risk leaving the canister on there.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Yep, like I said, you done nothing wrong and don’t underestimate yourself, you know more than you realise.

Think you’ve just been very unlucky to be honest.

I have heard about the pesticide thing before and been lucky, touch wood, and I’ve never asked any LFS where they get their plants from and whether it’s been treated or not!

Think you’re fine re the cycle and bioloads, as long as you move things around pretty evenly then not much to worry about.

Looks like a neat little canister, never have had All Ponds equipment before but have heard they’re good for the costs.

As for HOBs, I am actually a fan of having them on the side of tanks, especially if they’re powerful enough for the tank in question to create enough flow from one side of the tank to the other, and also having the HOB on the side is much easier for access and filter maintenance is a doddle as no taking pipes off and priming etc.

But that’s me as I do understand they’re not the prettiest of things to see hanging on side of tank and the waterfall trickle noise bothers some folks but apart from that, it’s good imho

Yep, keep an eye on water parameters due to the filter change and moving stock around, would be surprised if anything major occurs but good practice to keep an eye on things just in case.

Keep up the good work!

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Looks like a neat little canister, never have had All Ponds equipment before but have heard they’re good for the costs.

As for HOBs, I am actually a fan of having them on the side of tanks, especially if they’re powerful enough for the tank in question to create enough flow from one side of the tank to the other, and also having the HOB on the side is much easier for access and filter maintenance is a doddle as no taking pipes off and priming etc.

Thank you!
I do/did have a HOB on the side of the oto tank and don't mind it too much really, I find the trickle noises kinda soothing. I think overall I prefer the canister though, I even find the HOB more annoying to clean than the canister, weirdly enough!

I hated the canister filter for maybe the first two months I had it, I had so many problems figuring it out. Found priming it difficult, needed to cover the intake for shrimp/guppy fry and struggled to find something that didn't slow the flow too much, accidentally nudged the output slightly when I put the hood back on one night, and didn't realise until a quarter of my tank had been emptied as it trickled down the back and onto the (carpeted) floor... ugh, I regretted buying it!

But I have the hang of it now and actually really like it most of the time. It does a god job filtering, holds tons of media. I figured out priming is easy as long as you refill the canister with tank water, open the intake valve then raise the canister to the same level as the tank - allows the air bubbles to travel through and restores full flow. It's a bit more of a pain to strip down to clean, but that only really needs doing every 2-3 months, and the rest of the time just turning it off, opening and and swishing the sponges/bio media in a bucket of tank water is enough. It's not super powerful, but it's plenty for a 15 gallon. I hate tipping the media out of the HOB filter and trying to Jenga it back in, but I should probably replace the ceramic rings and bioballs I have in some compartments with plain old sponges. Might hate it less then