Questions About Some Odd Ph Readings

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attibones

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Hello, all!
 
So I'm cycling a 38 gallon tank with plants, and I'm in the nitrite development phase. I've been carefully watching the pH in this tank in particular because, a few days after I got a new test kit (still API freshwater master, which I've used before, but I was running out of reagent and test tubes), I decided to test for pH, only to find that my pH is reading 6.0. I tested for the high range pH, and it read 7.4, so I am assuming that my water is either 6.0 or lower. 
 
Then, today, I decided to test my tap pH. It's usually around 7.4-7.6 (the regular pH test kit always shows 7.6, and the high range shows 7.4, my guess is it is around 7.5). However, today the water reads at 8.0! 
 
Where I live it is very difficult to get an actual level of my water hardness, and I've found conflicting results all across the internet. My latest research from usgs.gov suggest my water hardness is "0-60 mg/l" which means my water is soft. According to the same website, my total alkalinity is roughly 200-400.
 
I'm very confused about what is going on with the water quality. Thirty minutes away, parts of our neighboring city, Starkville (I'm in Columbus, MS), have recently lifted a boil water alert, but I don't think that has anything to do with our water systems. 
 
Mostly I'm wondering what I should do about my tanks. I need to do a water change on the cycling tank so that I can get the pH into a normal range, but I'm worried that the pH is really not good for my existing fish. I've got peacock gudgeons, bristlenose cats, two guppies, two platies, ten cherry shrimp, and a betta (not all in the same tank, of course). Last month their water was a nice and even 7.5ish, maybe a little lower. Are they going to be suffering from this? 
 
When I do water changes, should I worry about the percentages or not? They've had one large water change on the first of this month, and a regular 50% last week. We are due for another water change now. I'm paranoid about doing the water changes though.
 
I've not tested all occupied tanks, but I'm about to. 
 
I do have in the cycling tank MiracleGro as my substrate, a good number of plants (though I've still not finished planting it yet), and two pieces of Manzanita and three pieces of Cholla wood. Could this be bringing the pH down so far, or is it just because of the soft water plus the high ammonia the tank has been dealing with (though now the ammonia is processing in less than twelve hours). 
 
I don't know if I should do anything, but any advice would be lovely.
 
i tested my ph with my API kit this morning and it also showed a reading of 6.0.
normally it is 7.4.
i gave the bottle a quick vigorous shake and repeated the test and it showed a reading of 7.4.
the active reagent chemicals in the bottle had obviously settled down as it had not been used for a while and needed a little agitation to make them usable.
it is also a good idea to check the use by date on your bottle.
bottle 2 of the nitrate test is also very prone to settling down and requires considerable agitation before use.
 
evan47 said:
i tested my ph with my API kit this morning and it also showed a reading of 6.0.
normally it is 7.4.
i gave the bottle a quick vigorous shake and repeated the test and it showed a reading of 7.4.
the active reagent chemicals in the bottle had obviously settled down as it had not been used for a while and needed a little agitation to make them usable.
it is also a good idea to check the use by date on your bottle.
bottle 2 of the nitrate test is also very prone to settling down and requires considerable agitation before use.
No, I haven't been testing nitrate but nitrite. Nitrate doesn't go down in a cycle. It's the nitrite I'm concerned about. I don't usually test for nitrate because it is so hard to get an accurate reading anyway. I just stick to a water change schedule. 
 
This is a very new test kit. It isn't age. I've tested and retested the pH on tap and tank, and both readings I've listed are staying the same. It isn't my testing method. It's the actual water.
 
Today seems the day for strange pH issues.  Anyway, to answer your question on the fish being hurt, yes and no.  The soft water or soft-water tolerant fish will be fine, and these are all those mentioned except the livebearers (guppy, platy) and possibly the shrimp.  If the guppies and platies can be housed together, it would be advisable to permanently raise the GH of their water.  This can be easily done with a clacareous sand/gravel such as aragonite, dolomite, crushed coral, etc.  I would mix some aragonite in with crushed coral if you choose that option as it is a better buffer with the magnesium plus calcium.  Aside from the pH issues, if the GH really is between 0 and 60 mg/l (= ppm, which equates to no higher than 3.3 dGH) this is too soft for livebearers.  Having said that, guppies might manage, but platies I would expect to have issues long-term due to lack of calcium primarily.
 
On the Miracle-Gro, yes, soil will lower the pH (and GH to some extent) due to the high organics.  The wood can contribute, more initially until the tannins get leeched out a bit and then much less so.  As you are cycling, I assume no fish are in this tank yet.  I've no direct experience with soil, but most reliable sources do mention that fluctuating water parameters can occur during the first few months, and some even go so far as to advocate not introducing fish for six months.  When cycled, soft water fish should be OK in this set-up.
 
I would myself want to sort out your variable water parameters.  This may be due to seasonal issues (?) but it is wise to know what is coming out of the tap prior to a water change in a tank containing fish.
 
Byron.
 
My platies and guppies are rather hardy individuals. They (as well as the other fish) are showing no signs of illness, lethargy, etc., and I plan to rehome them in the next few months. Right now they are in a tank with some kind of plant substrate topped with black blasting grit, and two one-year-old pieces of driftwood (one Malaysian and one possibly grapewood? I've never gotten an I.D. on them). I've only had these guys for a few months and I'm really only attached to one of them. They've gotten really nippy, so they aren't permanent.
 
You are correct that there are no fish in the cycling tank. However, it will house three pairs of peacock gudgeons, my existing BN plecos, and (eventually) 10 P. gertrudae, and around 12 emperor tetras. All of them seemed perfect for my old pH and water softness, but now I'm not sure if I should even get the last two species with the pH being so high right now. I'm hoping that it's only because of some unreported maintenance to the water lines. I'll be keeping an eye on it for a while to make sure it's staying this high or dropping, and I'll also want to keep an eye on the tanks. 
 
I'm hesitant to add a buffer for the pH, but is there anything else I can do to make sure there aren't any (major) fluctuations?
 
attibones said:
My platies and guppies are rather hardy individuals. They (as well as the other fish) are showing no signs of illness, lethargy, etc., and I plan to rehome them in the next few months. Right now they are in a tank with some kind of plant substrate topped with black blasting grit, and two one-year-old pieces of driftwood (one Malaysian and one possibly grapewood? I've never gotten an I.D. on them). I've only had these guys for a few months and I'm really only attached to one of them. They've gotten really nippy, so they aren't permanent.
 
You are correct that there are no fish in the cycling tank. However, it will house three pairs of peacock gudgeons, my existing BN plecos, and (eventually) 10 P. gertrudae, and around 12 emperor tetras. All of them seemed perfect for my old pH and water softness, but now I'm not sure if I should even get the last two species with the pH being so high right now. I'm hoping that it's only because of some unreported maintenance to the water lines. I'll be keeping an eye on it for a while to make sure it's staying this high or dropping, and I'll also want to keep an eye on the tanks. 
 
I'm hesitant to add a buffer for the pH, but is there anything else I can do to make sure there aren't any (major) fluctuations?
The problem with buffering pH in an aquarium is that it usually impacts the GH/TDS and this impacts soft water fish.  I prefer to let the aquarium establish its own biological system; once stable, it tends to resist outside influences.  Though this can vary of course.  And I'm speaking soft water fish here; with hard water fish I would use calcareous substances in the substrate or filter; this is fairly straightforward.
 
According to the info on SF [http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pseudomugil-gertrudae/ ] Pseudomugil gertrudae seems to have a very wide range in parameters, almost unbelievable.  The Emperors have a decent range, though I would not want the pH to drop below 5 for these, as according to Weitzman that can cause trouble.
 
Byron.
 
attibones said:
 
i tested my ph with my API kit this morning and it also showed a reading of 6.0.
normally it is 7.4.
i gave the bottle a quick vigorous shake and repeated the test and it showed a reading of 7.4.
the active reagent chemicals in the bottle had obviously settled down as it had not been used for a while and needed a little agitation to make them usable.
it is also a good idea to check the use by date on your bottle.
bottle 2 of the nitrate test is also very prone to settling down and requires considerable agitation before use.
No, I haven't been testing nitrate but nitrite. Nitrate doesn't go down in a cycle. It's the nitrite I'm concerned about. I don't usually test for nitrate because it is so hard to get an accurate reading anyway. I just stick to a water change schedule. 
 
This is a very new test kit. It isn't age. I've tested and retested the pH on tap and tank, and both readings I've listed are staying the same. It isn't my testing method. It's the actual water.
 
your nitrite spike may last for a week or more. it looks like you are half way through the cycling process
keep up the water changes and re read the instructions on the api test kit following them to the letter..
 
Plants alter cycling needs and methods. The more plants one has, the less cycling is needed to make a tank safe. For one the ammonia dose level should be lower than when doing a plantless cycle. Next, the plants should be allowed to settle in for a couple of weeks before any additional need for cycling is contemplated.
 
The initial ammonia addition should be done at about 2 ppm and then after 24 hours test results will show one how they need to proceed. Plants change the entire cycling equation to the point of potentially making it completely unnecessary. If one is familiar with planted tanks, they will know if their level and type of plants make this possible. If one is not, then the initial ammonia dose is how one can know.
 
There are two important considerations when live plants and cycling converge. The first is that the plants come in with some of the needed bacteria on them. The second is that plants consume ammonia (actually the NH4 form). Unlike the bacteria when the plants do this, they do not produce nitrite. This means one's ammonia results and especially their nitrite results will not look like they do in a plantless cycle and the nitrates will also be affected as the plants will uptake them as well.
 
Very true.  I never "cycle" a new or re-set tank as I always have plants including the fast-growing floating ones, and I have never seen ammonia or nitrite above zero with test kits.
 
Byron.
 
I'm not worried about the nitrite readings. I appreciate the notes, TwoTank, but I'm aware of that already. My concerns are mostly about the pH. I was also briefly worried that the pH crash was altering my nitrite bacteria, but it did a nice drop yesterday, though it isn't zero yet. ;)
 
Actually, the nitrite bacs do not care much about pH. It is the ammonia ones that can have problems in acid water. What the research shows is that some strains of AOB have receptors for NH4 and that others are able to "adapt" given the chance to do so gradually. This allows them to use this instead of NH3 which is pretty much absent at pH 6.0 or lower. The research also shows that ammonia oxidation at acid pH levels is less efficient, but it is there. In addition Archaea are thought to be more effective than the bacteria in such low pH environs.
 
 

Abstract

For more than 100 years it was believed that bacteria were the only group responsible for the oxidation of ammonia. However, recently, a new strain of archaea bearing a putative ammonia monooxygenase subunit A (amoA) gene and able to oxidize ammonia was isolated from a marine aquarium tank. Ammonia-oxidizing archaea (AOA) were subsequently discovered in many ecosystems of varied characteristics and even found as the predominant causal organisms in some environments. Here, we summarize the current knowledge on the environmental conditions related to the presence of AOA and discuss the possible site-related properties. Considering these data, we deduct the possible niches of AOA based on pH, sulfide and phosphate levels. It is proposed that the AOA might be important actors within the nitrogen cycle in low-nutrient, low-pH, and sulfide-containing environments.
from http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1574-6976.2009.00179.x/full
 
If you have a decent level of planting all you need is for your substrate to stop leeching ammonia and you can likely use Byron's method and have no need to cycle. It may mean you have to stock gradually rather than all in one go, but it sure is a lot easier to do. The problem for most with plants and cycling comes in relation to lightly planted tanks not those that are well planted and in which the plants have had time to establish. At some point, one has sufficient plants to be able to add fish gradually because the plants and the bacteria on them can use up all the ammonia. At he final end of this spectrum one can have sufficient plants and bacteria on them to stock fully all at one go and still be fine.
 
My guess here is you are seeing nitrite because you are adding over 2 ppm of ammonia in an attempt to cycle the tank? If in 24 hours your tank can process 1 ppm and have 0 nitrite as well, you are already able to begin stocking gradually, If you want to do close to a full stocking then that number should be 2 ppm.
 
Well within the first forty-eight hours of planting the first group of plants, adding the substrates and water, I was seeing ammonia and nitrite off the charts. I no longer see ammonia, so I'm feeding snack doses of ammonia (using the Dr. Tim's ammonia solution which claims one drop per gallon to reach 3ppm, though last time I used it for a different tank, I had to add at least double that to get that amount) of about 15 drops. Yesterday ammonia dropped to zero in about four hours, though I didn't test between initial dosing and the test four hours later.

I don't think I have enough plants for it to be so established that I could stick fish immediately upon starting the tank (as is usually recommended for this method of tank keeping). So I'm adding ammonia to feed the bacteria and I'm running a filter for the sake of good water flow. Due to budget, I'm adding the plants every time I get suitable money to get another large batch of plants. Anyway, that's why I feel that adding the ammonia is necessary.

When I feed the tank a snack today, I'll measure the actual levels of ammonia directly after adding the ammonia, then see how it looks.

So, let me ask you this: Do you think my pH will keep dropping, even after I've stocked the tank?
 
It is 1 drop = 2 ppm. Trust his solution over the test kit reading.
 
There are some things in MiracleGrow soils and potting mixes I would not use in my tanks. I am a fan of using substrate that looks good and having mulm develop over time in terms of plants. The most I do is to sprinkle some laterite in the bottom inch of my substrate when I set up the tank. I have several buckets full of used fluorite I would love to sell.
 
I would not add any ammonia if you are planting over time. Deal with the plants and when you get enough in, start adding fish or do a bit of cycling it it is needed. The better course of action, imo, would have been to save up and do it all at once.
 
The thing is a substrate with rooted plants in it and a substrate without it are completely different in what is going on in them. With no plants aerobic bacteria can only survive to about one half inch depth or so and then there isn't enough oxygen. But put plants into three or so inches of substrate and have them root and things change drastically. Plants have bacteria both on their parts in the water and on their roots as well. They want aerobic bacteria down there deeper in the substrate. So they will take O from the water (or air if partly emersed) and transport it to their roots and release it. Some of the bacteria using it are breaking down things into ammonia which the plants can use as NH4 and some is being consumed by nitrifying bacteria as NH3 which ultimate make nitrate.  Moreover there will be some anoxic regions in the substrate in juxtaposition with the aerobic spots in which denitrifying bacteria live and use the oxygen in any excess nitrate that the plants do not take. The dynamics of your substrate are really more complex when its planted. And more cycle friendly too.
 
Oh yes, one reason to test for nitrate is because too much of it will make pH drop. Just bear in mind that the nitrate kits do not actually test nitrate, what they do is convert it to nitrite and then test that. Therefore when one has high nitrite in a tank, they need to measure that too and subtract the result from the reading obtained on the nitrate test. If the pH is dropping it means the KH likely is as well and the bacteria need that too. it supplies the inorganic carbon they need.
 

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