Questions About Overstocking And Sickness

[Efishent]

Hi. I just wanted to check if my fish tank was still okay the way it is. I have 10 fish and 4 snails in it right now and didn't know if it was overstocked, so I just wanted to ask. It has 3 silver dollars, 1 red tailed shark, 1 pictus catfish, 3 red and blue tetras (but I think one is actually a bloodfin), 1 angelfish, 1 veil angelfish, and 4 nerite snails. The tank is 60 gallons with hiding places for all of them. I don't think any of the fish are at their full length yet, and the tetras are going to get moved soon, because I am afraid that one of them is sick. He is being treated in the tank with all of the other fish, and I think he will live. However, it is a bit strange, and I will get to that in a moment. The tetras are going to a new 10 gallon tank with my betta soon, after I am finished treating my sickly one. The other problem is that I don't know what sickness he has. His mouth never closes, and it looks like he has an extra piece of skin on one side of his mouth, hanging down. I think that that could just be a wound, but I'm not sure. His pupils look dilated and his color was draining, but I think his stress might be going away now, and his colors are getting back to normal. If anyone has an answer, please let me know, because I want to make sure all of my fish live!

 

[BaylorPerez]

your 60 gal tank is not overstocked, i can assume your fish is atleast 4-5 inches long so you can put more in, not recommended until you test your ph, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels.
 
Once you check those, just be careful on what fish you have, as some will be semi-aggressive (red tailed shark) and if not in a established territory, the shark might attack other fish of yours.
 
 
if anything, i would add some live plants to help with the ammonia and nitrite levels if they are to high, as well as added O2 in the tank if you dont use a air pump to keep extra air in the tank.
 
Anything else wrong? any algae on side of tanks? cloudy water? fish breathing on sides ( or on top of water ) 

 

[Byron]

I am afraid that there are some rather important issues with this tank stocking.  While it may not be "overstocked" in terms of fish body mass to water volume, it has fish that have specific needs that are not being met, and which cannot be met as the tank would then be seriously overstocked.  But please understand that the problems now present are just as serious and perhaps even more serious than simple overstocking.
 
First, there are shoaling fish, which means fish that live in groups and must have this in an aquarium.  Silver Dollars are shoaling fish, as are the tetras.  Having several of each species is necessary to prevent stress.  Minimum six is usually suggested, but the more there are above this, the better usually.  However, here we are already into problems.  Silver Dollars (presuming the species is Metynnis hypsauchen) grow to six inches and need a 4-foot tank for a group of six or a few more.  They will likely eat smaller fish as they grow; they are plant eaters, so they need some vegetable matter in their diet.  The "red and blue tetra" I'm not sure what they are, but without more of them they will likely become nippy of themselves and other fish.  Bloodfins are known fin nippers and should not be combined with sedate cruising fish like Silver Dollars or angelfish.  And by no means put these in with a Betta, that is only asking for trouble.  Betta are not community fish and are best on their own.  If you don't increase the group of the tetra, they would be best returned.
 
The pictus catfish, Pimelodus pictus, is also a sholaing fish and should have a group of five; individual fish frequently pine away, literally.  Attaining five inches, this is not a small fish, and again a 4-foot tank is necessary for the group.
 
The red tailed shark is notorious as an aggressor, though individuals for whatever reason may vary from the norm.  But chances are it would not like the pictus, and most bottom fish are not compatible.  It also takes a dislike to some upper fish now and then.  It would probably be best to re-home/return this fish, as it is going to cause issues inevitably.
 
Angelfish are also shoaling, but can be kept individually or in a breeding pair.  Unless yours are both female, or are a male/female pair, they will likely be trouble soon.
 
Byron.

 

[Efishent]

I will move the tetras to a new tank as soon as possible and will make sure I increase their numbers. The one tetra looks like a bloodfin, but schools and gets along just fine with the others. I haven't seen any of my fish nip at the others. I think my angelfish are male and female, but they might still be young so I can't be sure. About the catfish; he sits in a cave decoration all the time and rarely comes out. Is this due to depression or does he just want to be alone? Also, I think I can increase the numbers of one of the fish, but I don't know which one, the silver dollars or the catfish?

 

[BaylorPerez]

if you want a lone catfish( active yet can be kept alone ) get an albino catfish ( or one similar ) and i keep neon tetras(rainbow) in a group of 4, they do fine and my blackfin tetras (2) and they all do fine, only thing was my rainbow shark(red-tailed shark) was abit aggresive with my catfish

 

[Byron]

About the catfish; he sits in a cave decoration all the time and rarely comes out. Is this due to depression or does he just want to be alone?
 

 
My answer would be that definitely this is an issue due to being on its own.  This is a very active swimming species, but it must have "friends" of the same species.  You could have a group of say four or five in your 60g--you don't mention tank length, which is sometimes more important that water volume, but provided this is at least a 3-foot tank I would say a group of 4-5 pictus is better than now and not likely to be an issue.  Remove the red tail shark though, this will not work if these fish are behaving true to form.
 

Also, I think I can increase the numbers of one of the fish, but I don't know which one, the silver dollars or the catfish?
 

 
I partly answered this above, as I think the pictus the more critical to increase numbers.  If I knew the dimensions of the tank I might be able to pin this down more...but there is still the issue of the angelfish and I would not have angelfish and silver dollars together except in much larger tanks (6 feet and up).
 
Byron.

 

[Efishent]

My tank is about 4 feet long. Also, the angelfish swim together all the time and look like best friends. Not sure if I could remove the red tail, though; he was the first fish I planned on getting and I don't think I could bring myself to get rid of him now. What is the normal nature of a school of pictus catfish, though? None of my fish are fighting as of now and they all seem to get along just fine. The tank is 4 feet long, 2 feet tall, and 1 foot wide.

 

[Byron]

My tank is about 4 feet long. Also, the angelfish swim together all the time and look like best friends. Not sure if I could remove the red tail, though; he was the first fish I planned on getting and I don't think I could bring myself to get rid of him now. What is the normal nature of a school of pictus catfish, though? None of my fish are fighting as of now and they all seem to get along just fine. The tank is 4 feet long, 2 feet tall, and 1 foot wide.

 
Tank size is fine for what I suggested previously.
 
Now, I am not meaning to be unfriendly here, but you did post asking for advice, and I am doing my best to give it.  I appreciate that i am just one voice, and hopefully others with as much experience will add to this thread.  You may not be seeing issues now, but this is more likely to be good luck that will change as these fish mature.  I really would re-home the red tail shark, this is bound to cause you trouble.  And it is not being kind to your other fish to add in a troublemaker.
 
Each species of fish has evolved over thousands of years, and they have needs and temperaments that we cannot change just because we want one of them and ignore their needs and nature.  All of us here want the best for your fish as much as our own fish.  Researching before acquisition is always better, but once the decision is made, you have to deal with the consequences.
 
Byron.

 

[Efishent]

Yeah, I guess I'll try to rehome my shark. It's just that I don't think I'll be able to do it for a while, as I'll need to go out and get the tank and let it cycle. Should I not get the catfish until the shark is moved? Also, do you have any advice on what the tank for the shark should be? I thought maybe 30 gallons for the shark and maybe a few other smaller fish (I'll be sure to do more research, lol ) because I don't think I have the room or money for anything bigger than that.

 

[NickAu]

 
 I really would re-home the red tail shark, this is bound to cause you trouble.

+1
 
I would re home the shark tetras and 1 angel fish keep the silver dollars add a few more and bump up the number of cat fish.
 
OR
 
 Re home all the big fish, Get 5 more catfish, and about 15 more Tetras in a nicely planted tank. ( this is what I would do.)

 

[Efishent]

I don't feel like the angelfish need to be separated, as they act like best friends and usually hang around together. The tetras are going to a tetra-only tank, and the shark will most likely be moved to a new tank. Should I just move all the fish to a new tank, and have a catfish-only tank? I don't really have the money :w

Edit: it would be ok if I moved the catfish to a new tank with friends, right? Then I could let the other fish stay in their current tank, with the exception of the tetras who are moving anyway.

 

[Byron]

I don't know your level of experience or knowledge, and it is thus risky to make assumptions so I will try to explain a couple of things better.  Sometimes when new members ask questions I and others get the sense that offering advice is just wasting our time if it is not going to even be considered, but that is not the feeling I am getting in this thread so I will continue.
 
When Nick and I say "re-home," we mean simply removing the fish.  It may be given/sold to another aquarist or a store, or moved to a different tank provided that tank is suitable for the species.  If left there is the likelihood that this fish will start causing trouble, and when you start losing other fish it will be much worse than removing this one now.
 
The angelfish are an uncertainty.  You may be lucky to have two females, or even a pair.  If they were two males, this harmony would certainly not last.  Even a pair is no guarantee of peaceful existence.  A few years ago I had a male and female Bolivian Ram in my 5-foot tank, and they spawned four times before the male decided to kill the female.  They had not bonded as cichlid pairs must, and in hindsight I now realize there were signs of this from the start.  Individual fish sometimes differ from the norm, for reasons we cannot understand, but it is always safer to assume fish will behave according to the norm for the species, and avoid setting up potential risks.  Fish are living creatures that deserve the most natural environment we can provide if we want them to be "normal" and healthy.  All sorts of factors from tank size to aquascaping to water parameters to tankmates enter this equation.
 
Given that the existing fish are present complicates my advice somewhat, as I feel rather obligated to somehow manage a way around the potential problems while retaining the source of those problems.  So putting it in a nutshell, bottom line...get rid of the shark, increase the pictus cats to 4, remove the tetras.  Leave the angelfish and silver dollars, but be prepared to have to remove any of these if they show signs.
 
Byron.

 

[Efishent]

From what I've heard, it's just as risky to add more pictus catfish to the tank as keeping the angelfish. From almost everywhere I've looked, I've read that they will become territorial and fight each other. This catfish has been coming out more and more and seems to be fine now. I don't think it's worth taking the risk putting the catfish with other catfish and hoping they get along. Could I keep the angelfish in this tank for now, but if they get aggressive as they get older I remove them? All of my fish are relatively young, so I'll try to fix any problems if they arise.

 

[Byron]

You cannot change how fish are designed by evolution and nature.  Those of us who want the best for our fish follow nature rather than attempting to change it.
 
Yes, one can get conflicting advice al over the place.  The internet is a valuable tool for information, but it can also be very dangerous.  Anyone can call himself/herself an "expert" and post inaccurate advice.  Know the source of the information, and follow it if it is reliable.  Much of the stuff out there is not.
 
Carefully read the blue and especially green citations in my signature block.  Good luck.
 
Byron.