Question About Changing Water!?

Wow, Tolak just layeth the smacketh down!!! :hyper:

I think the last line says it best, there's many different ways to skin a cat so to speak.
 
Chloramine is toxic to fish at long exposure, not for 2-3 minutes lol.

Chloramine passes through the gills of fish and directly enters their bloodstream where it chemically binds to the iron in the hemoglobin in red blood cells causing a reduction in the cells capacity to carry oxygen.

Chlorine burns the edges of gills and destroys cells.

Chloramine and chlorine have a detrimental effect under any amount of exposure.This cannot be seen as desirable nor is it necessary,hence,why advocate adding water conditioner post as opposed to prior a water change?If you're going to put it in anyway, then why not do it prior? :blink:

You would probably find more potential hazards in a tank setup at your LFS than the hazard of chlorine/chloramine exposure for a couple of minutes.

Quite possibly,but how is that relevant?
I add mine after I do a water change as I have large tanks with big dirty fish. 2-3 minutes of chlorine exposure not only acts as an antibiotic to my tanks, it acts as a sterilizer. I use the chlorine to my advantage as a lot of experienced keepers have. As far as adverse affects to my fish, there aren't any. My fish are happy, breeding and live out their lives to max. The last death I had was a 7 year old cory, which is quite old for a cory.
 
2-3 minutes of chlorine exposure not only acts as an antibiotic to my tanks, it acts as a sterilizer. I use the chlorine to my advantage as a lot of experienced keepers have.

It's not necessry to use chlorine in this way.Routine tank maintenance such as water changes will dilute the level of pathogens present in the water column.

. As far as adverse affects to my fish, there aren't any.

You mean as far as you are aware.Do you believe chlorine/chloramine can differentiate between different organsims?It's toxic to all aquatic organisms, which, is the very reason why it's in your tap water in the first place.

My point is,regardless to the extent of the effect,it is wholly avoidable therefore unnecessary.

There is no individual right way to keep fish, do water changes, perform other maintenance tasks & so on.

Of course there is.There will always be an optimal way in which to receive an optimal result.If the choices we make in how we run our systems are resticted by, for example ,finances,then what may be the best choice for the individual ,does not necessarily make it the best choice for the system in order to achieve the optimal result. This would be a compromise.And yet,regardless of this compromise,just because 'many people do it' or 'they've done it this way for years' this compromise gets lost in translation and is seen as a correct method.

In my view this hobby is unnecessarily complicated.Everywhere you look there is contradicting advice.Somewhere in it there is a logical path through it.

Wow, Tolak just layeth the smacketh down!!!

How do you enjoy your fish with your head so far up someone's ar%e?
 
How do you enjoy your fish with your head so far up someone's ar%e?


Wow, my feelings are hurt :rolleyes:

Fishkeeping is not an exact science and if another fishkeeper can use the chlorine or chloramine to their advantage to treat a fish, then I say more power to them. Some fishkeepers never use any meds with the exception of salt. Others say these fish wouldn't encounter salt in their natural environment so it shouldn't be used to treat them. Neither would be wrong.

I never learn much when I have a closed mind, which is why I keep it open as much as I can. You should try it sometime. :good:
 
Goodness fenny, I hope you stick around long enough to see that this isn't that kind of forum. Everyone has something different to bring to the table and many of those views, even if different, can still be right. We can usually have a conversation about these things without getting heated. And and be sure to keep your sense of humour handy cause there's a few wackos around here :)
 
My original post was just a joke anyway and hardly a butt kiss since I don't even know who Tolak is....... :lol: It wasn't meant to be as harsh as you took it.

Let me add that some keepers have had great success doing it exactly the way you described. :good:
 
You mean as far as you are aware.Do you believe chlorine/chloramine can differentiate between different organsims?It's toxic to all aquatic organisms, which, is the very reason why it's in your tap water in the first place.

My point is,regardless to the extent of the effect,it is wholly avoidable therefore unnecessary.
Then do as you do. I explained why I do things as I do, and I do not believe that I m doing anything wrong. In fact, there are a bunch of extremely successful breeders and keepers that do as I do. If you don't like it, go on about your way. I haven't told you your way is wrong, so I do not believe my way needs to be critiqued as hard as your going about. So I'm going to get a step-stool to help you off your high horse now.

And I really hope you don't kiss your mom with that mouth. This is a family friendly forum, can we keep it that way?
 
..............no fury like a woman scorned! :crazy:
 
Yes chlorine is toxic to all organisms. Every medication we use in this hobby is also toxic, really no surprise to that. There is that saying, "That which cures can kill". Chlorine is no different then say an aquarium medication that uses formaldehyde, both are toxic and both can be beneficial short term depending on the dosage. We drink chlorinate water, though the chlorine levels in tap water are often really really low, if it posed a serious risk to the fish I'm sure you would not want to drink it...

There will always be many different successful ways to run an aquarium. You talk about optimal methods and optimal results, but what is the optimal result? What if not everyone agrees on this optimal result. Perhaps what is an optimal result for you is not an optimal result for me. Thus we are back at the point where there are many different ways to keep a successful/optimal and happy tank.
 
Yes chlorine is toxic to all organisms. Every medication we use in this hobby is also toxic, really no surprise to that. There is that saying, "That which cures can kill". Chlorine is no different then say an aquarium medication that uses formaldehyde, both are toxic and both can be beneficial short term depending on the dosage. We drink chlorinate water, though the chlorine levels in tap water are often really really low, if it posed a serious risk to the fish I'm sure you would not want to drink it...

There will always be many different successful ways to run an aquarium. You talk about optimal methods and optimal results, but what is the optimal result? What if not everyone agrees on this optimal result. Perhaps what is an optimal result for you is not an optimal result for me. Thus we are back at the point where there are many different ways to keep a successful/optimal and happy tank.
Would optimal results be when fish lives its expected lifespan? Wow....i seem to be achieving that...
 
Now while I feel that in MY situation at this particular junction in my limited fish keeping experience I will stick to the treated b4 method BUT

I love the discussion and information (this is what i keep coming here for),
I see the points made and think that rather than writing it off to randomly exposing toxins in a non caring way there is some thought to be given to the idea,
I mean in reality if you were to do a 20% untreated change into a 55gallon (208ish)liter tank that's 11 gallons untreated mixed with 44 gallons stable aged water, what would be the dilution for the say 2-3 minute to the extreme 15 minute exposure actually be ??
Not knowing what exactly the ppm is in my tap water I'll stop the math there.

Another good point is the chemical bonding that takes place as the Chlorine/Chloramine(simply Chlorine bonded with Ammonina correct? so the ammonia will pass through filter as all waste does and we are left with the Chlorine question lol) does its job,
it very well may be used up quickly, and even if it did kill off a limited amount of beneficial bacteria that would promote a renewal of young vigorous bacteria to replace the older ones killed.
Hmm, what is the natural lifespan of nitrifying bacteria? are they long lived and do they loose appetite as they age? (knowing full well the colony is constantly reproducing as bacteria has for millions of years)

I mean I read through a thread on another forum recommending only changing water every 3-6 weeks at 15%... that sounds much crazier/risky than dosing the declor after that fact IMO.

In any case Seachem states that a 5x dosage will have no Ill effect on fish so if in doubt, and don't want to lift buckets,or as in Tolak's situation, direct delivery (which sounds alot like the pvc type system my ex had in the basement, I'd really rather not ask him opinions if I don't have to) dose the tank up and stick the hose in I guess.. It all seems to make scene now, sorta.

Keep the knowledge coming please :good:
 
Fishkeeping is not an exact science and if another fishkeeper can use the chlorine or chloramine to their advantage to treat a fish, then I say more power to them.

I haven't commented on their use as fish treatments,only whether their presence is beneficial or not after a water change.

I never learn much when I have a closed mind, which is why I keep it open as much as I can. You should try it sometime.

Far from it.Take this thread.Before I joined it,I didn't know that much about chlorine and chloramines or their effects.The vast majority of information advocates their removal.Then ,inevitably with this hobby,a contradiction occurs.When this happens I cannot help but learn more in order to resolve it.There is always a logical way past it.
The way I see it....Is there a benefit to having them present?The only benefit offered is that they reduce pathogens.But this comes at cost. Itis toxic ,therefore, by it's very nature, it must have a detrimental effect on fish.Add to this the fact that you reduce pathogens just by doing a water change any way, you're essentially achieving the same result without any chlorine/chloramines present.So there is no real benefit.Therefore the logical conclusion would be to remove it.

I am not the one that needs to keep my mind open.It's the people that carry on doing what they are doing just because they or someone else has alway done it etc. without questioning why contradictions in practices occur.Be aware that a contradiction in practices is not merely a different way of doing the same thing,they are practices that fly in the face of each other.Is it safe?Isn't it safe?It can't be both.

Fortunately I have always dechlorinated.Were I on the other side of the fence,I would have readily converted based on this more thorough understanding.

My original post was just a joke anyway and hardly a butt kiss since I don't even know who Tolak is....... It wasn't meant to be as harsh as you took it.

My reply was only intended as abit of banter.No offense meant nor none taken.

Then do as you do. I explained why I do things as I do, and I do not believe that I m doing anything wrong.

Why would you?After all you've always done it that way and so have many other people, therefore it has to be the best way. :good: Right?

And I really hope you don't kiss your mom with that mouth. This is a family friendly forum, can we keep it that way?

Who's on their high horse? :lol:

We drink chlorinate water, though the chlorine levels in tap water are often really really low, if it posed a serious risk to the fish I'm sure you would not want to drink it...

Take a look at the various studies online regards chlorinated water and you would probably think twice about drinking it.

You talk about optimal methods and optimal results, but what is the optimal result? What if not everyone agrees on this optimal result. Perhaps what is an optimal result for you is not an optimal result for me. Thus we are back at the point where there are many different ways to keep a successful/optimal and happy tank.

Eh? :S Surely the optimal result for any caring fish keeper would be to provide the most favourable enviroment in which the fish live.I cannot think of any result which would surpass this.Can you?
The only certain way of achieving an optimal result would be by using optimal practices.This is not the same as using practices that are the best available where restrictive criteria dictate the available choices.Rather, to be described as optimal,there can be no restrictions,all choices should be available and then the most favourable selected.

I have not once disputed that different methods can be used to keep a successful system.But a successful system does not automatically equate to an optimal system.Although an optimal system would, however, be successful by default.

I in know way claim to be running an optimal system.But I do feel it is attainable.
 
The argument here seems to base the facts around the immediate health to the fish, whereas i prefer to think that using my Prime is helping my Beneficial Bacteria more positively... they are alot more sensitive to the Chemicals my water company adds to the tap.

Terry.
 
Eh? :S Surely the optimal result for any caring fish keeper would be to provide the most favourable enviroment in which the fish live.I cannot think of any result which would surpass this.Can you?
The only certain way of achieving an optimal result would be by using optimal practices.This is not the same as using practices that are the best available where restrictive criteria dictate the available choices.Rather, to be described as optimal,there can be no restrictions,all choices should be available and then the most favourable selected.

By your reasoning, I must say. I'm going to release my fish back into their natural habitat. That would be providing the most optimal environment for them right? You may want to do the same, as you are so keen on them having the best. You are kind of being a hypocrite.

As far as waterchanges, yes they do dilute pathogens, but they don't kill them. It's not that I am opposed to change or think my way is the best, I am comfortable with what I am doing and feel that I am not doing any harm. My fish are healthy, and happy.
 
I add prime to the tank just before refilling with a hose
 

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