Planning For A Bigger Tank

[attibones]

So after I move, I'm turning my presently empty 30-ish gallon (it claims to be 38 gallons) into a hermit crab set up. I want to get another tank for angels.

Eventually I want to build a 120 gallon for angels, hatchetfish, and corydoras, but for now I really want a tank I can buy and stock with cuties.

I can usually find 55 gallon setups on Craigslist for cheap with all the fixings (stands, filters, lights, etc) and the occasional 60-75.

For the purpose of this discussion, let's assume I'm only able to find a used 55 gallon as these are more easily found.

So would a 55 gallon work for angelfish? Ideally I'd like to keep a small group, but I have another potential stocking I'm interested in.

I want to keep the following:

1x BN pleco (I really miss my three that died recently)
10x harlequin rasbora or espei rasbora
5-6x angelfish
Assorted snails

Would a 55 work for that?

 

[attibones]

My other stocking would be like this:

3x Pearl gourami (1m/2f) OR honey gourami
1xBN pleco
15x rasbora or tetra species (suggestions?)

OR

1xBN Pleco
8x albino cory
?x Galaxy rasbora OR chili rasbora (not sure on numbers, would also need to factor in affordability)
Cherry shrimp
Assorted snails

Forgot to mention that this tank will be planted, of course.

 

[Byron]

1x BN pleco (I really miss my three that died recently)
10x harlequin rasbora or espei rasbora
5-6x angelfish
Assorted snails

Would a 55 work for that?
 

 
Yes.  I had a 55g (called a 48g in Canada, back then anyway) in the 1980`s, and one thing I found annoying is the width (front to back), it is very narrow (12 inches) and with a 4-foot tank this is difficult to overcome visually and aquascape.  But it is possible, and with angelfish wouldn't be much of an issue.  You could be authentic and have lots of wood and branches with just floating plants to dim the light, and a plain black background which would likely deceive one's perception and make the space deeper.
 
I would however re-think the rasbora.  Angelfish as they mature do consider small fish as food, most of the time.  Linear fish are best avoided.  Some of the tetra that are more disk-shaped work very well (Rosy Tetra, Roberti Tetra, etc), just avoid the few that tend to nip.  Bristlenose is fine, and corys do well in this type of setup.
 
 

My other stocking would be like this:

3x Pearl gourami (1m/2f) OR honey gourami
1xBN pleco
15x rasbora or tetra species (suggestions?)
 

 
In the space of a 55g, Pearl Gourami would be lovely.  You could do a larger group, two males and 4-5 females.  Male pearl gourami are not quite as feisty as some of their relatives, and with lots of plants and wood should not be an issue.
 
Here the rasbora would be fine.  Many tetra would too.  I tend not to suggest fish except when preventing issues, but if you mention any you personally like I will try to comment.
 

OR

1xBN Pleco
8x albino cory
?x Galaxy rasbora OR chili rasbora (not sure on numbers, would also need to factor in affordability)
Cherry shrimp
Assorted snails
 

 
I would forget the "dwarf" rasbora species in so large a space.  I've done this, and they get lost, visually.  My 70g is the same dimensions except for the added width, but it didn't really work.
 
Byron.

 

[attibones]

As always Byron, I appreciate your advice. I really enjoy hatchetfish, especially the marbled. At first I considered emperor tetras with the angels, but I'm worried they would be too nippy. The five I had previously nipped among each other (I was waiting until after the move to get more), but tended to avoid the gudgeons. However, I am worried that these tetras would be unable to resist the temptation of pretty fins. 
 
I'm fond of many of the smaller tetra species, but I also like penguins and emperors and Buenos Aires tetras. 
 
I really want a group of angelfish, so that's going to be my main focus. I love corydoras, and I plan on having sand in the tank anyway. Albinos are my favorite (of all fish coloring really), but I'm pretty sure they prefer cooler water than the angels, yes?
 
I have a lot of floating plants I'm going to add to the new tank, as well as some of my taller ones. Plus I still have several pieces of driftwood I intend to use from other tanks. I think I'm covered on the decor.

 

[Byron]

I agree that Emperor Tetra would be a real risk.  I've had both species (Nematobrycon palmeri and the less often seen N. lacortei) and the latter were real terrors; three males had about 80 other characins all at one end of my 5-foot tank for a few days until I removed them.  Both species spawned, and I kept the N. palmeri fry (a group of 12) which grew up in the 90g, and I used them as an experiment to see their behaviour and found them rather feisty and one or two of them did show some signs of sneaking up on the Congo Tetra to fin nip.
 
The Buenos Aires Tetra (Hyphessobrycon anisitsi) is not suitable with sedate fish as it is rather boistrous, and inclined to fin nip slow fish.  The Penguin Tetra should be fine.  The "true" species is Thayeria obliqua, though more common in the hobby is T. boehlkei which was the fish originally shown in the literature as the "Penguin Tetra" until Weitzman sorted the species out in 1957 but this "False" Penguin may still be widely seen.  Either species should be fine as they are much the same in behaviours.  The "false" is the more common probably due to its more striking lateral line.
 
Temperature for angelfish depends upon the origin of the fish.  Wild caught fish must have warmth comparable to discus, but the commercially-raised angelfish which is what one sees in almost every store are actually better at "normal" tropical temperatures around 77-78F.  Many but not all corys are OK with this temperature.  There are now domestically-bred albino forms of at least three species, C. aeneus, C. paleatus and C. sterbai, perhaps others.  The latter are OK with more warmth (C. sterbai is often recommended for discus and wild angels), but C. aeneus and C. paleatus would be better around 75-76F.
 
Byron.

 

[attibones]

C. aeneus were the ones I was referencing. They just have so much character. I'm also find of skunk, bandit and panda cories. Of course, they might wash out on my substrate because the white pigment is less vibrant (from what I've seen in shops) than the "white" of the albinos. I will probably use black sand. I've got half a bag left from a 50 pound so I might as well just use it up and get another bag of sand from Tractor Supply. Otherwise I'm using play sand. I'll keep cories as an option, but I know I want at least one BN pleco, a breeding pair if possible.

I'm almost definitely getting Angels from a shop and not online, so it is good to know that the temp range isnt as high as the wild angelfish prefer. Byron, what's your opinion on the hatchetfish? I'm fond of the marbled ones, but I have an easier time getting the standard silver (which are larger anyway). Their odd body shape makes them difficult to consume, I've read, but I've never kept them so I'm not sure about their water needs or temper.

 

[Wildbetta]

What black sand do you have from Tractor Supply Atti?
 
I think all the stocking plans look pretty interesting to me.  I do agree with Byron about the really small species getting lost in the tank and for this not to happen you would have to have really large shoals which might be a bit much on the wallet.  However I don't really agree with keeping that many angels in a 55 gallon tank together unless they are really young.  In any of your stocking plans you should be fine to have a pair of BN in a tank of 55 or so.

 

[attibones]

What black sand do you have from Tractor Supply Atti?
 
I think all the stocking plans look pretty interesting to me.  I do agree with Byron about the really small species getting lost in the tank and for this not to happen you would have to have really large shoals which might be a bit much on the wallet.  However I don't really agree with keeping that many angels in a 55 gallon tank together unless they are really young.  In any of your stocking plans you should be fine to have a pair of BN in a tank of 55 or so.

The sand is black blasting grit, the really fine stuff. I like it. It runs about six dollars for a fifty pound bag. Someone else on here recommended it to me, but I don't remember who exactly.
 
The angels I'd be getting will probably all be the dime or quarter size ones they sell at the LFS, not the much larger guys. I am hoping to build the larger tank within a year or so of getting the newer one. How many angels would you suggest, WB?

 

[Wildbetta]

I would suggest 2 or possibly 3 angels in a 55 once full grown although it would probably work out best with just two if a pair was to form cause they would bully the 3rd.  Just my opinion since they are such large aggressive fish. 
 
As for the blasting sand, that is what I thought you were talking about.  It is not really recommended with sifting bottom dwellers since it so sharp so that might cause an issue with you having cories.  I use it in a couple of my tanks but not in any of the ones with sifters. (like cories and most loach species).

 

[attibones]

I haven't used it with cories either. Just bettas, puffers, that kind of thing. My previous BNs were on it for a while with no problems but they don't really sift through the substrate like the cories do. If I get cories, I'll just use the black at the very bottom of the tank and top off with play sand. That won't be a problem, but it may mean that any white species of cory may be less vibrant against a tan sand. I love white fish on the dark substrate.

Anyway, if I found a 75 gallon, would I do better with a group of five or six? This would be the largest I can go right now, though the 55 would be easier to come by.

 

[Byron]

Wildbetta has reminded me of an issue with the angelfish that I omitted previously, sorry about that.  And this is that a group of five plus will almost inevitably have male/female, and if two of the fish should pair up, the other angels may not last long.  This is not a peaceful fish, and one has to be prepared for the probable; while there are exceptions since we are dealing with individual fish, as the author of a good article on angelfish in the current or last issue of PFK stresses, it is wise to always assume the fish will be normal rather than the exception unless you have contingency plans to deal with sudden issues like separating the group.  So regardless of the tank size, unless it is huge, say 6+ feet, this is something to keep in mind as if a pair forms the other angels may have to be re-homed.
 
I must point out something though...never keep 2, 3 or 4 angelfish together from the start; always acquire five or more.  The only exception is a single angel (which obviously can work but is not in the best interest of the fish as this is a naturally shoaling species) or a bonded pair.  Not every male/female will accept each other; if the pair choose one another, you are much more likely of success keeping them together, though obviously they will spawn regularly.  Like most cichlids, angelfish are shoaling, and within the group from the beginning they will develop a clear hierarchy; the more there are, the less chance a single fish will be picked on.
 
To your question to me about hatchetfish...these generally are left alone according to my experience and research.  The plain silver or platinum species are larger as you mention, but they also do not remain at the surface.  The marble are in the genus Carnegiella, and all species in this genus are true surface fish, rarely moving lower or if they do it is temporary for some reason.  C. strigata (marble) get to a decent size in time but can be slow growing which I suspect is a food issue.  I'm very fond of the Carnegiella species in particular, and have all four described species.  There are two distinct forms (in appearance, the mid-band across the keel and also the black or slightly brownish/black colouraztion) of the marble, which Gery considered subspecies but Weitzman & Palmer (2003) placed together as one species with two variants; you can mix them or have separate, no issues.  I also have the platinum (Thoracocharax stellatus) and the most common silver, Gasteropelecus sternicla) together in my 5-foot tank.  As I mentioned, these species are down about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way into the water column far more often than they are at the surface, and they readily feed down with the other fish too, something my Carnegiella species never do.
 
Byron.

 

[Munroco]

I have a group of 10 Emperors in with my 4 angels, Never seen any fin nipping or evidence of it. I think they are too concerned with each other, males displaying and females dashing in and out of the bushes with them. The angels just supremely glide about the tank, lords of all they survey.

 

[attibones]

Here is my new plan:

6x angelfish
15x silver hatchetfish (more if I don't get any bottom feeders besides the plecos)
2x BN pleco

If a pair forms from the angel group, I'll rehome the others. Before I purchase the angelfish, I'll check with the LFS around town and make sure I'll have an easy time rehoming the unpaired fish, should that happen.

I'll get the silver hatchets because they apparently don't stay at the surface as much as other hatchetfish, and I'd like to give the Angels some room up there.

I'll consider cories further, but I'm not sure if I'll get any. I've never kept kuhli loaches. Maybe I'll do some research into them.