Ph Keeps Dropping

[craigieboy01]

Yes, this is correct. As a practical matter, a KH kit will give a number to the amount of "buffer" the water has, allowing it to withstand pH change. Below about KH=4 it can be expected that the pH may make a quick drop at any time, stopping the cycle.

As a technical matter, KH is supposed to refer to Carbonate Hardness and should only be measuring the carbonates (HCO3-) (also known as Temporary Hardness because it can be boiled out) but it turns out that our kits actually measure Total Alkalinity, which is a good surrogate for carbonate hardness in our situations and so some of the general hardness aspects (Ca and Mg for instance) may indeed be a bit involved, but technically those should be mostly involved in GH (general hardness) measurements.

None of this matters to you as long as you make large water changes when the cycle is in danger of crashing or has just crashed.

~~waterdrop~~

Hi Waterdrop, As i said I'm doing a fishless Cycle, If the Ph keeps dropping will i just keep adding Bicarbonate of Soda or do a large water Change? Which is best for the Cycle?

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, this is correct. As a practical matter, a KH kit will give a number to the amount of "buffer" the water has, allowing it to withstand pH change. Below about KH=4 it can be expected that the pH may make a quick drop at any time, stopping the cycle.

As a technical matter, KH is supposed to refer to Carbonate Hardness and should only be measuring the carbonates (HCO3-) (also known as Temporary Hardness because it can be boiled out) but it turns out that our kits actually measure Total Alkalinity, which is a good surrogate for carbonate hardness in our situations and so some of the general hardness aspects (Ca and Mg for instance) may indeed be a bit involved, but technically those should be mostly involved in GH (general hardness) measurements.

None of this matters to you as long as you make large water changes when the cycle is in danger of crashing or has just crashed.

~~waterdrop~~

Hi Waterdrop, As i said I'm doing a fishless Cycle, If the Ph keeps dropping will i just keep adding Bicarbonate of Soda or do a large water Change? Which is best for the Cycle?

Both are actually good, as long as you don't overdo the water changing. The bicarb getting you up in the 8.0 to 8.4 starting point and then letting you slowly drop from there should be a bit better than the 7.6 starting point and dropping from there. If and when the pH does drop quickly enough to look like its going to drop past the 7 mark or so, and especially if you have a bunch of NO2 and/or NO3 in there, it can be good to do a gravel clean (even though its fishless, the N-compounds can kind of "hang-out" near the larger organic molecules that seem to get a bit more concentrated in the substrate area) and take it down to the substrate (what we usually refer to as a 90% water change) and then refill with conditioned, temp-matched tap water (the tap water will refresh some of the trace Calcium and Iron the bacteria can use) and bringing it back to 84F/29C. Be sure to recharge the ammonia to 4ppm (or whatever level you are working with at the moment) and to put in the teaspoon or so of bicarb. Actually, some of the posts in the last few months have also got me thinking I would also add the tinyest bit, a flake or two of fishfood along with the usual ammonia.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[craigieboy01]

Yes, this is correct. As a practical matter, a KH kit will give a number to the amount of "buffer" the water has, allowing it to withstand pH change. Below about KH=4 it can be expected that the pH may make a quick drop at any time, stopping the cycle.

As a technical matter, KH is supposed to refer to Carbonate Hardness and should only be measuring the carbonates (HCO3-) (also known as Temporary Hardness because it can be boiled out) but it turns out that our kits actually measure Total Alkalinity, which is a good surrogate for carbonate hardness in our situations and so some of the general hardness aspects (Ca and Mg for instance) may indeed be a bit involved, but technically those should be mostly involved in GH (general hardness) measurements.

None of this matters to you as long as you make large water changes when the cycle is in danger of crashing or has just crashed.

~~waterdrop~~

Hi Waterdrop, As i said I'm doing a fishless Cycle, If the Ph keeps dropping will i just keep adding Bicarbonate of Soda or do a large water Change? Which is best for the Cycle?

Both are actually good, as long as you don't overdo the water changing. The bicarb getting you up in the 8.0 to 8.4 starting point and then letting you slowly drop from there should be a bit better than the 7.6 starting point and dropping from there. If and when the pH does drop quickly enough to look like its going to drop past the 7 mark or so, and especially if you have a bunch of NO2 and/or NO3 in there, it can be good to do a gravel clean (even though its fishless, the N-compounds can kind of "hang-out" near the larger organic molecules that seem to get a bit more concentrated in the substrate area) and take it down to the substrate (what we usually refer to as a 90% water change) and then refill with conditioned, temp-matched tap water (the tap water will refresh some of the trace Calcium and Iron the bacteria can use) and bringing it back to 84F/29C. Be sure to recharge the ammonia to 4ppm (or whatever level you are working with at the moment) and to put in the teaspoon or so of bicarb. Actually, some of the posts in the last few months have also got me thinking I would also add the tinyest bit, a flake or two of fishfood along with the usual ammonia.

~~waterdrop~~

Is a Ph of 7.6 be okay for keeping Guppies? Weekly 30% water changes should keep the Ph roughly at that level, How important is Ph with Guppys? Thanks

 

[waterdrop]

A pH of 7.6 sounds fine for guppies, in my un-expert opinion. They like harder water and usually a pH closer to eight than to seven indicates that may be the case. Also, the most important thing for fish is that the hardness be "stable" rather than be a particular number.

Its also important to not confuse your water during fishless cycling with your water later with fish. The chemistry of the two types of tanks can be totally different and while you are fishless cycling you should regard your water as a "bacterial growing soup" and not expect any readings to be telling you anything about what your eventual water will be like for fish. Does that make sense?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[craigieboy01]

A pH of 7.6 sounds fine for guppies, in my un-expert opinion. They like harder water and usually a pH closer to eight than to seven indicates that may be the case. Also, the most important thing for fish is that the hardness be "stable" rather than be a particular number.

Its also important to not confuse your water during fishless cycling with your water later with fish. The chemistry of the two types of tanks can be totally different and while you are fishless cycling you should regard your water as a "bacterial growing soup" and not expect any readings to be telling you anything about what your eventual water will be like for fish. Does that make sense?

~~waterdrop~~

Yes it makes sense, i just wish this cycle would hurry up, haha

 

[OldMan47]

There is no reason to worry about the pH of a tank that is over a pH of 7.0 As long as you are in that range, the pH is high enough for a reasonable fishless cycle and you can proceed with very few restraints to your cycle. Once you get a cycled tank, a reasonably stable pH above 7.0 and better yet above 7.5 will be fine for the commonly available livebearers. This includes guppies, swordtails, platies and mollies. I could add to the group by saying goodeids and Limias, but they are less likely to show up in your local fish store. Yes I am a livebearer fanatic enthusiast that has a bit of experience about how easy a livebearer is to keep in high pH and and high mineral content water.

 

[craigieboy01]

There is no reason to worry about the pH of a tank that is over a pH of 7.0 As long as you are in that range, the pH is high enough for a reasonable fishless cycle and you can proceed with very few restraints to your cycle. Once you get a cycled tank, a reasonably stable pH above 7.0 and better yet above 7.5 will be fine for the commonly available livebearers. This includes guppies, swordtails, platies and mollies. I could add to the group by saying goodeids and Limias, but they are less likely to show up in your local fish store. Yes I am a livebearer fanatic enthusiast that has a bit of experience about how easy a livebearer is to keep in high pH and and high mineral content water.

Hi Oldman47, So when my tank is cycled and planted up and decorated my tap water is 7.6, do you think my Ph should stay at that with weekly water changes?

 

[OldMan47]

A pH of around 7.8 to 8.2 is end the result when you use huge amounts of bicarbonate in your tank. I find that I can easily keep my easier fish at less than a content of7.8 pH IN MY tanksd.

 

[craigieboy01]

A pH of around 7.8 to 8.2 is end the result when you use huge amounts of bicarbonate in your tank. I find that I can easily keep my easier fish at less than a content of7.8 pH IN MY tanksd.

Hi Oldman47, Can you use Bicarbonate to lift your Ph when you have fish in the Tank?

 

[waterdrop]

NO, bicarbonate is NOT the method of choice for raising mineral content and pH when fish are in the tank. If you -must- do it then using crushed coral (CC) in a mesh bag in the filter is the method of choice. If you want to read lots of details on that topic there's an article I wrote along with drobbyb and I think he may have a link to it in his sig - you could find his id with a search I think.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

B icarb is too fast acting for me to be comfortable using it in an occupied tank. For that circumstance, you use the calcium carbonate approach with the most common forms being crushed shell or crushed coral. WD and another member here put together a decent thread that describes it. I have a link to their thread in my signature area that I have marked as pH Problems.

 

[craigieboy01]

Thanks for the help everyone, off to the big apple in the morning, so hopefully when i get back my tank will be ready to get stocked.