Ph Issues

[StevenF]

 
 
I really don't want to start using chemicals to raise and lower the PH or any of that other stuff.  I don't know what the other, the GH/KH are, but if it is something that the water dept is doing then they won't change it just for me.

GH and KH are gernerally not something the water department adds to the water.  The environment (rocks and soil) adds this to the water.If the values are very high many fish will die.  Medium levels are often associated with hard water.  Some fish handle hard water better than others.  If the numbers are low you have soft water.  Many tropical fish prefer soft water while fish that prefer hard water will not do so well in it.  If the GH and KH are very low you  might be getting distilled water or RO water.  This is water that has had many of the minerals in it removed.  This is generally done in dry places where the water is too hard or otherwise not suitable for drinking such as sea water.   Very soft water will slowly kill invertebrates while having no noticable effect on many fish.  
 
While these values are important we also need to know the values of your tank.  The reason being is that rocks, gravel, or decorations in your tank may be leaching minerals into the water.  So your tap may be fine but your tank might not be.  Hopefully the valves will tell us something.  

 

[Akasha72]

 

 
 

   Very soft water will slowly kill invertebrates while having no noticable effect on many fish.  
 
 
 

 
 
Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with that. My water is very soft. I have zero kH and zero gH and a pH of around 5 yet I have millions of trumpet snails ... and they are increasing in their number daily. I also have two zebra nerite snails and I've had them both for years. I've also  had apple snails in the past. My soft water did erode the shells of my apple snails but my nerites are fine and so are my trumpets. My tank is a mass of nerite snail eggs too and if my water was killing them slowly they would not be laying eggs everywhere

 

[julielynn47]

This whole ph thing is just a mystery to me.  I know that the ph did not used to read this high.  And it is high coming straight from the tap.  In the tank it is 7.6 and 8.2, from the tap it is 7.6 on the PH side and on the High PH side it is reading 8.8.   The water is what it is and I don't want to use chemicals on it.  Whatever the GH and KH are, I have no test for that, but they are not going to change either. So although I don't don't know what they are, the end remains the same. Or at least that is how I see it unless I want to use chemicals, which I don't.
 
I don't know, but the fish I have in the tank now, and have had for years, are doing fine and the fish that I got from Texarkana's Pet Smart are all doing fine.  But the fish I got from Hot Springs Petco, and the ones that have bought from the Pet Smart store in Hot Springs all have died.  Except for the butterfly loach, one albino cory and an golden snail.  
 
So I guess I will either have to do the acclaimating in a bucket or just go to Texarkana to get fish.

 

[Akasha72]

can I ask why you are testing the pH on the low range and the high range? This is where the confusion may be coming from. Ignore the high range - you only need this if the reading is off the low range scale. If it's reading at 7.6 on the low range then that is what your pH is. A pH of 7.6 is good

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Nobody is asking you to change your water with chemicals. They are trying to figure out why things could be going wrong. Hence the reason to ask for the levels of important factors, like gh and kh. Here is a link to a test kit for it, just so you know what it is.

http/www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=13521&cmpid=03cseYY&gclid=Cj0KEQjw17i7BRC7toz5g5DM0tsBEiQAIt7nLGm5PP7J6cp9JKiHXbCzGIQ3kTfF2nFc_0SO3f-081AaAsQq8P8HAQ


Also, how are you trying to acclimate the new fish? Do you only float the bag and then dump in? If so, I would not do that next time. A little different trick than the bucket...is to float the bag of course for the temp, then dump some bag water out(NOT into the tank), then add a small amount of tank water to the bag. I usually let it sit for 5 minutes or so and then repeat this process multiple times. Along the lines of an hour or so. This can help acclimate them a bit easier than just dumping.

Hope this helps!


Akasha- I believe the highest reading on the regular ph test is 7.6, hence the reason to test for the high range. The lowest range on the high test is 7.4. so I agree with them testing both, though I would only do it initially. That way you can make sure what the ph truly is.

 

[Essjay]

can I ask why you are testing the pH on the low range and the high range? This is where the confusion may be coming from. Ignore the high range - you only need this if the reading is off the low range scale. If it's reading at 7.6 on the low range then that is what your pH is. A pH of 7.6 is good

 
At the risk of confusing Julielynn, I need to say at if the pH is 7.6 on the pH tester it could be higher than that. Once a reading gets to the highest colour, it could be off the top of the scale. When the pH tester reads 7.6 you should always use the high range tester to check. In this case the high range pH tester does show the pH to be over 7.6.
 
In Julielynn's case, she should be using the high range pH tester and only using the pH tester if the high range one shows the lowest colour as it could be lower than that.

 

[julielynn47]

The reason I test the High Range is because the on the regular PH side it looks to me like it is surpassing the darkness of blue on that side. So I test the HR PH and it is also off the charts. 8.8, straight out of the tap. So it could be even higher than 8.8
 
I just called the man who takes care of our water supply.  He said that he has not been adding anything to the water. He also said that it is not supposed to be reading that high. It is supposed to be around 7.4 at all times. They try to keep it that way.   He says he is going to get a digital tester ( whatever that is ) and test it next week.  He is using a color wheel ( whatever that is ) now, but says it might be getting old.   
 
So I don't know. Maybe some automatic dosing machine of some kind is on the fritz. I am supposed to call him next week to see what his readings are.  At least I will know what I will have to do in the future for my fish. If it remains high forever I guess I will have to stock my 75 very carefully.

Up to this point I have been floating the bag for about 30 minutes and then netting the fish and putting them straight in the tank. But if the ph continues to be high I will then slowly acclimate them to the higher ph, which is something totally new to me

 

[Byron]

Julielynn, you are heading in the right direction now, by contacting the water authority.  You must ascertain the water parameters of your source water, and doing so from the water authority is the best and easiest way to do this.  Once you have confirmed the levels from them, you (and the rest of us attempting to help you through this) will know the starting point.
 
It is important to also get the GH (general or total hardness) and the KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity).  The person you have been speaking too should be able to give you these numbers.  Just write them down and let us know.  This is important because the numbers for the GH and KH will tell us what may or may not occur with the pH.  The pH is not stable necessarily, as I tried to explain previously.  But when we have all these numbers, we will be able to understand exactly what is going on, why your pH may be fluctuating, and perhaps why the fish died so quickly.
 
As others have said, we are not suggesting you start adjusting the parameters with chemicals.  This can be extremely dangerous.  But we must know the state of the source water in order to pin down any issues.  Then we move on from there.
 
We can then compare your test results for pH of the tank water with the pH of the source water.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

my apologies ... I thought (from memory, it's a while since I've used the API kit) that the highest on the low range was 8.0 

 

[julielynn47]

I am going to town Monday. I will try to get a GH/KH test kit and take the readings from the tap.  That should be easy to do. I just don't have the tests yet.

Okay, well....I looked online and I can't find a store anywhere around that even sells the gh/kh test kits.  Not even a pet store.  So I guess I will have to order one.  

 

[Byron]

I am going to town Monday. I will try to get a GH/KH test kit and take the readings from the tap.  That should be easy to do. I just don't have the tests yet.

Okay, well....I looked online and I can't find a store anywhere around that even sells the gh/kh test kits.  Not even a pet store.  So I guess I will have to order one.  

 
You don't need to spend money for a GH/KH test kit.  You may only do this test once.  All you (and we) need to know is the GH and KH of the tap water, and there is no reason why the water authority fellow cannot tell you this.  Just make sure you get the number (as opposed to as term like "moderate hard") and the unit of measurement.  This latter is ppm (parts per million), dH (degrees), mg/l (milligrams per litre), or whatever.  You are in the USA so it will likely be the latter, but ask to make sure.

 

[Jaffa323]

Hi There,

I'm having trouble with my 11gallon tropical tank, I had cycled it fish free for 8 weeks with my previously used substrate and filter, plus 1 live plant on wood. Had my water tested at my local aquarium and tested fine to add fish. I added 2x angle fish 3 days apart. Water temp, and ammonia was on point but the ph dropped to 6 and I lost 1 fish. 3 weeks on and I have been testing the water twice a day, and 20% water changes every 3rd day.... And added aquarium salt and calcium as instructed by my local pro. The ph level keeps dropping to 6 - 6.2, and I cannot work out why. My water hardness was tested fine at the shop and this mornings api master test reading are as follows....ammonia 0ppm ...nitrate 0ppm ....nitrate 0ppm...ph 6.5... This is after a 20 % water change.... FYI added water is kept in a buck for 3 days with the reccomended amount of calcium and seachem prime only. Please help me this is driving me nuts. I also have an undergravel filter and a 400Lph canister filter with bio/sponge and seachem Purigen. Also the system has air pump.

Cheers
J

 

[Akasha72]

a pH of 6-6.5 is no problem for angelfish - in fact it's water that they'll thrive in. My pH is around 5 (I'm having issues too) and all my fish are breeding like mad - the cories especially. 
In the wild angelfish would be living in water with a pH as low as 4 so 6.5 is about right. I would look to stock all amazonian fish with a pH like that. They will thrive in it

 

[Byron]

Hi There,

I'm having trouble with my 11gallon tropical tank, I had cycled it fish free for 8 weeks with my previously used substrate and filter, plus 1 live plant on wood. Had my water tested at my local aquarium and tested fine to add fish. I added 2x angle fish 3 days apart. Water temp, and ammonia was on point but the ph dropped to 6 and I lost 1 fish. 3 weeks on and I have been testing the water twice a day, and 20% water changes every 3rd day.... And added aquarium salt and calcium as instructed by my local pro. The ph level keeps dropping to 6 - 6.2, and I cannot work out why. My water hardness was tested fine at the shop and this mornings api master test reading are as follows....ammonia 0ppm ...nitrate 0ppm ....nitrate 0ppm...ph 6.5... This is after a 20 % water change.... FYI added water is kept in a buck for 3 days with the reccomended amount of calcium and seachem prime only. Please help me this is driving me nuts. I also have an undergravel filter and a 400Lph canister filter with bio/sponge and seachem Purigen. Also the system has air pump.

Cheers
J

 
There are some natural processes at work here, I will try to explain.
 
The pH is part of the GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness, also termed Alkalinity) relationship.  We need to know the actual numbers for your GH and KH, as this will tell us what to expect with the Ph (I'll come back to this).  The GH and KH of the source water is unlikely to change much in the aquarium, so don't waste money on test kits.  If the store will test, fine, but get the number for both and the unit of measurement.  Or you can contact your municipal water authority, probably via their website where these values may be posted.
 
Now to the pH.  It is normal in every aquarium for the pH to lower.  This is caused by the production of CO2 (which becomes carbonic acid) resulting from the breakdown of organics, which are the fish excrement, any dead or dying plant matter, etc.  The extent to which the pH will lower is somewhat determined by the "buffering" capability of the GH and especially KH.  When we have the numbers I can continue.
 
Aquarium salt should never be added to a freshwater fish aquarium except to treat specific disease.  There is absolutely no benefit from continual use of salt, and with soft water species it is actually detrimental.  It will certainly have no effect on GH/KH/pH anyway.
 
Calcium is something that may or may not be advantageous, depending upon the source water parameters and the fish species.  With soft water species (like angelfish mentioned) this should not be necessary.  We will need to know the source water parameters before going further, but it is highly doubtful this is going to be necessary or beneficial.  And depending upon what exactly this "calcium" product was, it may or may not have any impact; I suspect what the "pro" was getting at was the buffering issue.
 
It is possible the fish died from the fluctuations caused by adding all these substances, or the substances themselves, or the fish may have been diseased to begin with.  Before getting more, though, please understand that this 11 gallon tank is much too small for angelfish.  Also, they need to be in a group, or a mated pair, but there is no point in going into all that as the tank is too small even for one.  We can consider suitable fish once we have the numbers for the GH and KH, and have sorted everything out.
 
Byron.

 

[StevenF]

 
 
He says he is going to get a digital tester ( whatever that is ) and test it next week.  He is using a color wheel ( whatever that is ) now, but says it might be getting old. 

This is a digital PH sensor I recently purchased.  http/hannainst.com/categories/ph-checkers-for-education/hi98100-checker-plus-ph-tester.html
 
Basically it has an electrical sensor.  The tip of the probe (which has the sensor) is kept covered in a storage solution.  You rinse off the storage solution and put the probe in the tank and waite for the number on the digital read out to stabilize. to stabilize.  That takes about 5 minutes.  The meter costs about $40.  You also need the storage solution. and two PH reference solutions for periodic calibration of the probe.  the these bottles cost an additional $34 for the 100ml bottle size.  The tips may eventually fail but can be replaced.  I don't know how long it will last but I am hopeful it will be at least several years.  I think they are worth the extra cost.
 
You can get cheaper meters on but the quality and accuracy may not be as good.  And the Cheep chines models may have confusing instructions and lower accuracy.  The good thing is that you no longer have to refer to color charts.