What's the future of fishkeeping?

[MaloK]

I bred Colisa Lalia in the early 90's and after a few generations where I destroyed every fish that look the slightest affected.

Was able to reach the point where there was no sign of Iridovirus for many years in my setups.

That made me conclude that the fish are not born with the disease but where catching it very early on.

So by doing insane water changes, bringing all fry to other clean tanks removing all adults asap, I ended with a clean setup. And bred them for more than 10 years afterward.

At the moment I didn't realize how lucky I was... I simply dismantled and gave everything when we moved from this house. Moving this was impossible. And I still miss them dearly today.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

The point I was trying to make is that there will always be healthy breeding stock to ensure our hobby continues in the future if we use a little science. What it takes for this to happen is a practical test to screen fish for TB. Such a test can identifies fish that are genetically resistant to TB. These resistant fish become the breeding stock.

I wonder about the possibilities of a PCR (DNA) test.
I've used these tests in the past to test dart frogs for chytrid and the ranavirus.
The hard part would be swabbing the fish for a sample.

 

[gwand]

That’s what I was thinking too.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

While I have not done so in a number of years, I used t wok with Rachel O. who inported a lot the fish she sold from Asian farms. As part of this I used to buy some portion of her order for my self. I never encountered any of the issues people are reporting as if it was a huge problem in all imports. My experience and hers were the exact opposite.

I also was involved in purchasing over $14k worth of mostly zebra plecos from Bellenz Farms in Indonesia. No losses along the way and minimal losses after arrival. These were due to the other person involved who received the fish. He had a lot more fish than were in our joint order and it was not so easy for him to keep up. I think in all he had under 5% die over the next couple of months. This was not due to their arriving sick.

And I do not agree that people who are choosing to work with the rarer more expensive fish are doing a poor job. I have been breeding the pricier B&W species from he big bend of the Xingu since Apr 2006. I have paid as much as $1,000 a fish for some of my breeding stock, I do not want to lose a single fish and especially not the offspring from them. Further, I take a great deal of pride in raising and selling healthy fish.

I started with zebra plecos which are now considered to be endangered. Despite not having a web site nor participating om any social media I have sold a lot of fish over the years and am told by people who do use social media that I have a great reputation. People find me to buy my fish.

The business of breeding and/or catching wild fish is like any business, done for profit. And in business there are good honest people and also dishonest unscrupulous ones as well. Over the years I have only had Ich in my tanks twice. Both timed it came in on recently purchased fish. One was a on fish I bought on AquaBid and the other was from a retail store. I have not purchased I fish from a retail store in about 12 years. I stopped buying fish on AquaBid in 2025 until about 5 weeks ago. While most of them we in good condition I had 3 DOAS out of 20 fish and lost 2 more in Q. that is a 25% loss rate. On what I got as import from Asia the numbers were lower.

Rachel is a smart lady and she learned fairly quickly what Asian vendors to avoid. She knew from which farm to buys specific fish and what species not to buy form them as well. She also knew which suppliers to avoid completely. I was lucky to be able to benefit from her early losses. She also cut her losses after fish arrived from 20% down to 5%. One reason what she stopped acclimating new arrivals and plopped and dropped them. This is what the transshipper did as well. All incoming fish needed to be reabagged based on customer orders. I was able to watch how the did this. Basicallt in the process the fish got 100% water changes.

What I believe is that a lot of fish keepers are actually responsible for early losses because of what they do with new fish. One of the most imoprtant reasons I got healthy fish and then was able to deal with them properly is the people I knew. I was very lucky to have met some very experiened and knowlegeable people whose advice I could get.

A perfect example was when I got my zebras. Barbie F. arranged for the purchase and then advised me on several things I needed to do which included not mixing the new group of 13 proven breeding zebras with the two I already had. She explained to me that the incoming fish were an established colony with an extablished pecking order for bith the males and the females. She explained that fi I added my two fish to the groups it would deatroy the pecking order and the fish would go back into fighting mode to reestablish things. She told me this would stop the spawning and it could be many months before it might restart.

I also asked her about inbreeding and how many generations would be safe to breed before new blood would be needed. Her answer was at least 5. I never had to question that because I could never hang onto the offspring long enough to keep any for myself for many years. When I finally did so and set up a group of offspring, I never had them start spawning as I need the tank space for other fish and sold them off. I needed a bit more time to succeed and did not have it.

What I do know is almost all of the people who boughy fish from me did so with the intention of trying to spawn them. Some never succeeded and sold the fish. But, I did get contacted by a number of buyers over the years who repeorted they had success. I know I am far from unique in this. There are a lot of fishkeepers out there who have a good attitude and eho are very resposnib;e in how they do things. I also know there are crooks out there who only care about the money and not the fish or the buyers.

Imo, I believe social media has made it easy for bad information to flourish when it comes to keeping fish and sepcific species. And the same thing has been true about forums like this one over the years. Some of the misinformation still exists on this site. One example is when a newer keeper is told if the have any reading of ammonia they must change water, this is not the case no matter how many times it gets posted. Most keepers do not even know that most of the ammonia released in water turns to ammonium. Nor do most folks know that not all fish are equally sensative for ammonia or nitrate. Nitrite is a different issue because of how it works once inside a fish. For nitrite, only chloride is needed and not water changes. Doing only water changes for nitrite is usually the worst thing one can do.

If the average fish keeping is not in the know about cycling, something we all must do, how can we expect them to have better knowledge on the proper care of the fish they acquire?

The one thing I do not disagree with is the idea that humans are the reason why most species become extinct in the wild. And what motivates this is basically greed.

One last observation, if one wants to buy healthy fish then one needs to learn from where to get them. I do not buy ish from pet stores and have not done so for over 20 years. I have an LFS about a 25 minute drive whose staff is superb and whose fish are always healthy. I Have skipped Q when I shopped there which was not often, The reason was they are the most expensive fish store I have ever seen. This goes a long way to explaing the poor quality of fish that come at much cheaper prices.

Most of the fish which I have ourchased in the past few years have been offered at the auction we have at the end of every meeting of my fish club. These are not imported thet are bred by the members. ANd these are the most exerienced members in the the club. They are people whoi have been keeping and breeding fish for many years. Some of them are the peole you will see/hear speaking at weekend events and/or writing articles for the few fish magazines that still exist.

As always, this is just my opinion and others should feel free to disagree. I certainly do not have all the answers.

 

[seangee]

I wonder about the possibilities of a PCR (DNA) test.
I've used these tests in the past to test dart frogs for chytrid and the ranavirus.
The hard part would be swabbing the fish for a sample

But probably not something most hobbyists would (want to) do.

 

[GaryE]

There's a whole lot here.
First, inbreeding is rarely a problem with farmed fish. Tuberculosis is, and inbreeding gets blamed for disease issues.
Bad breeding can be a problem.

If you have platys, you don't really have platys. You bought hybrids of several Xiphophorus species, most likely, in a process that began 100 years ago. The stocks that exist are pretty stable. A few years ago, I got messed up platys that carried (but didn't show until I had young) balloon genes. They also popped sort swords when I raised the young.
Some platy species do have short swords, but not the one I was buying. They were crosses.

Fish TB is going to be a problem to find resistant strains for, since the wholesalers constantly put pressure on the farms to sell cheaper and cheaper fish. The pet store scene in the USA is close to a monopoly, and they have enormous clout with suppliers. That's just the workings of the market. And their demands mean farms cutting every corner possible. TB will halve a lifespan. The fish make it to market. That's all that matters. None of these companies are going to pay for testing and for the hygiene measures needed.

A lot of wild fish succumb to tb because it isn't a common disease where they come from. They haven't had to develop immunity because until humans introduced the disease to them, it wasn't a problem. I used to get my fish from an importer who didn't carry farmed fish, and only sold wilds. Over 30 years, I never saw tb in those fish. And none of the fish I bought were overfished. The local fishing families depended on them.

So the future? That's on people like us. If we begin to breed fish again, as hobbyists did before fish were easy to buy and simply consume, there will be a hobby in 100 years. If we don't, there won't. If we want good stock, it's on us to make good stock. In the meantime, support collective efforts. Join clubs. Support quality local stores. If you can avoid the chains, make it a principle to do so.

 

[GaryE]

The point about Rachel O'Leary is a key one. It's something that has bothered me as a few of the true experts in the hobby have died recently, and the general hobby has barely noticed. The "names" in the hobby now are often good salespeople, something unavoidable in an actor's medium like video clips. We have people walking around who developed the knowledge we work from, but are hardly noticed. We shouldn't lose that recent history.

With the weakening of many face to face fish clubs, we don't talk to each other as much. We don't share as much info.

There are some ethical farms, but they are often priced out by the poor quality ones. Good importers will choose the farms based on quality, and make a bit less of a profit to sell quality. It's a really wise idea to learn who has written what, and who among those people has gotten involved in fish distribution. There are people you can trust who source good fish. Most of the time, when they are mentioned, someone comes online, says they're expensive and suggests a jobber.

If Rachel O'Leary were still doing that, and if I were in her country, I'd prioritize her stock based on her excellent reputation and her sharing of grounded knowledge.

So add to the future of the hobby that if it is to survive, it's going to get more expensive....

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

We haven't even addressed the biggest threat to the future of the hobby yet.
The government.
It doesn't matter where you live. There are local, state/provincial, national politicians that want to keep you from keeping fish and/or tell you what species you can and cannot keep.
I'm not being over dramatic when I say you need to fight for your rights.

Are any of you aware of what went down in Florida Python Massacre on April 6, 2023?
Allegedly trained wildlife officers can't tell the difference between a python and a boa. Do we trust them to tell the difference between a neon and cardinal Tetra? Why is this important and why do we care?

FWC (Florida Wildlife Commission) has jurisdiction over the animal trade in Florida. They have a proposed white list of approved reptile and amphibian species. Many common species available at your local pet store would be banned. They would not be imported nor farmed in Florida, which is the major port of entry for reptiles and amphibians, as well as tropical fish. The thing is according to the law amphibians are actually the jurisdiction of the Florida Department of Agriculture. FWC is fighting to wrestle control over amphibians from the DOA to FWC. Ya know what else DOA has control over? FISH FARMS!!!!!! The fascists want control over fish as well. If it happens the hobby is dead. It gets even more interesting. FWC had a woman biologist, I forget her name at the moment, but she was the one in charge of this planned white list and banned species. Shortly after she proposed this ban on species to the FWC she resigned from her position with FWC. Guess where she went to work??? U.S. Fish and Wildlife. Yep. The ***** moved up to the Federal level. Guess what she's working now? The same plan but for the entire United States.

Reptile keepers have USARK to fight for their rights and their industry. They are serious, they raise money, they hire lawyers, they have dozens of people show up at FWC meetings to speak on their behalf to fight draconian legislation at the local, state, and Federal level.
What do fish keepers have? Is there any such group to stand up to the fascists on behalf of the fish industry and hobbyists?
If we don't have anything we should.
Maybe that's my life's calling. Oh I just came up with a name Fishkeepers United Captive Koalition U.S. I'll let you all absorb that for a sec. Fight the power.

 

[VioletThePurple]

Gouramis get the Iridovirus and gouramis and all other fishes can get Mycobacteria (Fish TB), neither of which can be treated. Since most of the fish coming out of Asian fish farms have these diseases, and most pet shops and importing facilities have these diseases in their tanks, fish keeping is somewhat doomed. Fish won't live as long and if you get wild caught fishes, they usually go through the same holding facilities at importers and pet shops so they can pick up the diseases there.

That's exactly what I'm thinking

 

[GaryE]

That's exactly what I'm thinking

That may be an Australian experience though. In North America, you rarely know what's wild or farmed in the places that use those importers.
There is a cottage industry in importing direct from the source, and while that isn't mainstream, it is accessible for those who go looking. The fish in my lfs make me nervous, but there are better options if I want to get into shipping, or traveling.

 

[VioletThePurple]

AI fish? Who needs those! We already have hologram tanks

man made fish, in every color of the rainbow, will probably be available as long as we are around...

but really... AI fish... a tank with infinitely changeable fish, on a big screen, and no water to change, or dead fish o scoop out...

 

[Oldspartan]

Most of this is over my head. For us, and perhaps for others, the idea is to chose the species that meets your fance and buy from a good fish store. From that point onward breed your own from that original stock.

To explain --- In the year and half we have been involved we have gone from a scatter approach, which meant we bought largely on whim. We quickly learned that was bad for the fish and did not really meet our objective of having little water-based pets that added ambiance to our home. We are now in the process of specializing our tanks. To do this we wander the fish store and ooh and oh at various fish. Eventually we choose and go home to begin making a suitable glass home by doing research and wading through often opposing views. I have built a fair library for this purpose. We then buy some breeding stock which are the basis of the particular tank. This is currently being done with Angels, Rainbow Fish, Bettas and a couple of Molly "brands". I THINK we will avoid some of the issues related in this thread, maybe not.

So to me --- At least some of the hobby will involve people like us, largely uneducated and uninterested in the "biology" of the hobby, (and I am not minimizing the biology's importance). I think a large part of the hobby's survival will be in the hands of people like Linda and I. We treat the fish as pets, like our dogs, cat and bird, with the visual and sound ambiance of the tanks and their occupants replacing the physical aspect that dogs, cats, and birds offer.

Our Blood Parrot, not a favored species by many I admit, is the exception. He, (or she, I really do not know which), is more dog than fish.

 

[GaryE]

I think, @Oldspartan that the future will be like the present in that whether you like the fish I do, or I like the fish you do, it really doesn't matter. We do this for pleasure and find pleasure whether our fish come from wild jungle streams or petrie dishes. Hopefully we or people like us will still be discussing fish 50 years from now, and what they'll be talking about is what they enjoy.

 

[MaloK]

The future will always be there until... Major sr*w up occurs.

But I prefer to see it more as being able to have rare deep see fish in pressurized tanks.

Genetically engineered 3 inch killer whale. Shrimps bigger than lobsters.

Than losing it all.

I mean our sun is still giving us a lot of time to figure it all out.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

My club has recently had a number of kids, with parents bringing them, to our monthly meetings. Most of them have at least one tank. I am talking aged 8-12 give or take. I consider this one of the best ways to bring youngsters into the hobby.

We treat them in a similar fashion as we treat the adult keepers within reason. They get the same respect as keepers despite being children. They are the future of the hobby after all.