Not exactly sure where to post this...

[pleder]

OPCN there is no need to risk any mortality partial or otherwise with the addition of liverock to a seahorse fry tank. Cocopods, rotifers, and bbs are all readily available and not diffucult to keep. I believe IMO that this is a far safer and more successful way to run a breeding program then to simply letting some die due to dangerous tank conditions. You will find no major succsessful seahorse breeding facility keeping liverock in with there seahorse fry.

Navarre.

I in no way stated or meant to infer that keeping of anemeones was at all easy, or something that all home aquarists should partake in. I agree they are very diffucult to keep and should only be attempted by experts like yourself. You have kept several anemeones in your tanks, have you not? You will notice from the pictures there are none in mine, nor have there ever been. I have in no way ever contributed to this practice.

My issue in regards to your post was the statements of "fact" that were exagerated. I feel it is important to speak of expierence and convey honest information to those who seek it. They story which you told left 1 out of every 100,000 anemeones harvested in the wild living for a year in captivity. I have found no other source confirming this declaration, and you are unable to provide one. If you can support your statistics from a reputable source, I will be the first to apologize.

You are accurate that sea anenomes are becoming endangered, they are sold by the thousands, and large quantity's die in home aquariums.

I was not the one to bring the propigation of anemeones into this thread regarding seahorses, you were. Anenomes have no place housed in any system with seahorses. The combination will prove fatal in time.

Your attempts at not offending participants and readers of this thread has not faired well. That is how I found this site. Through complaints about the content and ill advice, on other forums, by multiple people. I just followed the link.

 

[Opcn]

Hydras and fire corals (colonial hydras) will eat just about anything small, any fish fry will be eaten, yet the ocean is full of fish, thats ecause the mortality isnt very high when compaired to the size of batches of fry, Live rock provides a steady nutritious meal, which is something you can't get with BBS and rotifers 6 times a day (when you get the mass die off in the tank its not good either), the coPApods living on live rock and macroalgea are great for fish, and good nutrition early is important to devoloping hearty fish.

 

[pleder]

Generally if someone warns you you go out and take extra precautions unless your an egotistical idiot.

I have sited sources of reputable seahorse breeders that will disagree with your statements, in regards to liverock in seahorse fry nursery's. I have given you reasons why. You continue to ignore the obvious evidence. Please follow the link. At least take the time to hyave some basis of fact before giving people bad advice that will result in the deaths of there seahorses.

http/www.seahorse.org/library/articles/H...horseFarm.shtml

Following these steps will generate a higher survival rate then what is found naturally in the wild. According to CITES the seahorse fry survival rate to adulthood in the wild is 1 to 3 per 1000 fry.

I must say I have warned you and now leave you to your own quote.

 

[Opcn]

Once again you accel at applying things where they dont belong, I have take mortality into consideration and still say "the MORTALITY is worth the benefits" its hard to say that if I dont use the word mortality or some equvalent which indicates that it has been taken under advisement, However I did a search on that breader site and found nothing about hydroids or hydras or firecorals, what I did find whas where he said this

There is live rock scattered throughout the system

and this

There is no clean up crew other than an assortment of bristle worms and other small critters that came in with the live rock

the very fact that you put up a breeder site that uses live rock "scattered throughout [ as in everywhere] the system" indicates that I am not the only one with my views, there are those who dont agree with you on your own forum, its not set in stone at all.

 

[Opcn]

Although I have not had a problem with parasites associated with the use of wild plankton, a number of other pests were introduced to the tanks along with the desirable plankton. The worst of these were hydroids, gammarid amphipods, and gastrotrichs. Hydroids were probably introduced as larvae or medusae. Within a few days of introduction, fuzzy colonies could be seen on the walls of the tank. Their stinging tentacles can injure and even kill small seahorses, but they probably do more damage by competing for food. By the time a hydroid colony reaches a few inches in diameter, it can become a serious drain on your plankton supply. Three hydroid genera have been observed in our aquaria: Bouganvillia, Tubularia, and one other, which has not yet been identified. Scraping the colonies off the walls only helps temporarily. Within a few days, numerous new colonies are formed around the tank as a result of fragmentation.

In an attempt to learn more about these hydroids, we began culturing them in separate tanks. After a few weeks of culturing, a tiny nudibranch, identified as Tenellia fuscata, appeared in some of the hydroid tanks. White egg clusters also appeared among the hydroid tentacles. The 6-mm nudibranchs were observed feeding on the tentacles of all three hydroid species. Within about a month of their initial appearance, hundreds of nudibranchs could be seen in these tanks and virtually all of the hydroids had been consumed. Hydroid-eating nudibranchs such as Tenellia have appendages called cerata on their backs. As they feed on their cnidarian (corals, anemones, hydroids and jellyfishes) hosts, they are able to keep the cnidocytes (stinging cells found in cnidarian tentacles) intact. They transfer the cnidocytes into their cerata to sting would-be predators that dare to bite into them. Hopefully, with the help of T. fuscata, hydroids will no longer be a problem in our rearing tanks.

You were right I should have done more research, it totally blew your argument "out of the water", look for neubranches and your set

 

[pleder]

OPCN David places his fry in fishbowls, and the fish bowls in larger tanks. The scattered rock and bristle worms are found in the big tank, but not in the small tank which ocntains the fry. The fry fishbowl nursery is protected from the hydroids and bristle worms in the live rock. There are pictures on the link demonstrating his method. The liverock and fry do not come in direct contact.

Sorry but another link. This one is easier to read. It is from a discussion forum with anwsers from seahorse breeders.

http/forum.seahorse.org/index.php?act=ST&f=9&t=18326

 

[pleder]

Here is an email correspondence from the author of the article I posted.

QUOTE
Hi David M,

This may be a dumb question but for clarification, in your article about the home seahorse farm you stated, "There is no clean up crew other than an assortment of bristle worms and other small critters that came in with the live rock." and "There is live rock scattered throughout the system ".

Is the liverock and bristle worms seperated from the seahorse fry ?

Also since you are a very succsessful breeder what is your feeling on hydroids being in the seahorse nursery?

I am sorry to bother you with these questions but have found someone on another site quoting your article and find there is confusion on either my part or his.

Thanks for all your help. I know your are very busy.

Pleder
a.k.a

Kevin


QUOTE
"There is no clean up crew other than an assortment of bristle worms and other small critters that came in with the live rock." and "There is live rock scattered throughout the system ".



This is talking about the broodstock and growout tanks, not fry tanks. Yes I had problems with hydroids. I kept fry in fishbowls thoroughly cleaned after each use and changed when the droids became evident, which they usually did.

Hydroids are a problem, I have never tried to treat for them, I just swap the fry out to a clean bowl when I begin to notice them. HTH -D

 

[Opcn]

Very good, in the breeding article it stated that hydroids where biggr competition than they where a threat, now in say a fuge or sump thats full of pod life there is rarely an excess of hydroids because they are eaten by neubranches (hydroids are wide spread it only stands to reason neubranches that eat them would be aswell so if you get quality live rock with a high level of diversity your probably going to have a population to keep the hydras incheck) in a system such as davids he essentially blocks the neubranches from getting into the fry tanks (100 micron filters hydroid medusas can get throught but not neubranches) and compensates for this by cleaning them out often, it seems to me that they arent really as big a problem to him as the last thread might have indicated and that the best solution would be good, diverse live rock.

 

[TBLightningFan]

Just to jump in here. From what you guys have said, there is no way anyone should keep corals with seahorses. But I'm just gonna run down a few things that were mentioned by others already.

Seahorses need a taller tank = bad lighting for corals.
It is bad for seahorses to have Metal Halides = bad lighting for corals
Seahorses should not have much water flow = bad for corals

I'm sure there is lots more to throw in there. I will admit I have only been in the Marine hobby for a year. I may know less than many on here, but I do know this...

Lighting is a corals bread, and water flow is its butter. So how can you even think of keeping these in a tank with a seahorse? The only way to do it is to stress one or the other. So why would anyone do such a thing? Putting corals in a bad environment because it looks good doesn't work for me. Then go buy a fake one.

 

[RamJet]

I personally know of a lot of people who raise both dwarves and larger horses.

How is it that you can personally know a lot of people who raise dwarves yet not have any dwarves in your area?
Your trying to buck the wrong crowd here. I would also like to point out that the tank sizes that you are talking about would be a nano tank. Seems to me that this alone would make it expert only.
I want to make it strongly known that I stand totaly with Navarre in reguards to this subject.

 

[pleder]

, there is no way anyone should keep corals with seahorses.

Seahorses need a taller tank = bad lighting for corals.
It is bad for seahorses to have Metal Halides = bad lighting for corals
Seahorses should not have much water flow = bad for corals

You are right in reference to hard corals or sps, or anything with any type of sting or sweeper tentacles. You can have a seahorse tank that will still provide a quality environment to seahorses.

Taller tanks do equal tougher lighting, but that is dependent on what you are trying to keep. There are many corals that are lower light and do not require metal halides. You can achieve 5 or 6 watts per gallon with PC's and be fine with some corals. I personally only have 131 w on my 44 tall. I keep lower light corals and place them towards the top of the tank. My corals are thriving.

There is some misconception about how much flow a seahorse can handle. In my tank I have 2 rio 200's and the return from the cannister and UV. The current is adjusted in a way that it is benfical to the corals.The seahorses like to swim in the current and do fine to swim against it. I am not a fan of staginate water.


I would completely agree with RamJet that dwarves are very hard to keep. There limited tank size prooves to be a challenge as well as the fact that they require daily supplies of freshly hatched bbs. Just the feeding regiment is a PITA. To keep dwarves succsessfully a keeper has to be very dedicated and very involved.

 

[Fishy411]

I personally know of a lot of people who raise both dwarves and larger horses.

How is it that you can personally know a lot of people who raise dwarves yet not have any dwarves in your area?
Your trying to buck the wrong crowd here. I would also like to point out that the tank sizes that you are talking about would be a nano tank. Seems to me that this alone would make it expert only.
I want to make it strongly known that I stand totaly with Navarre in reguards to this subject.

well u can know someone who isnt in yur area who raises dwarves. I still agree with Navarre and Ramjet on this one. Seahorses are best left in the ocean.

 

[pleder]

Seahorses are best left in the ocean.

If you are a ture believer of this statement then your same arguements supporting it can be translated to any type of fish or plant that is kept in the home aquarium.

All species die in homes, many prematurely. All speices at one time came from the Ocean. Why not broaden your horizons a little and stop buying anything for your aquarium.

My seahorse was a full grown adult when purchased, I have kept him for three years. He has exceeded his average lifespan in the wild, and he is still healthy. There are keepers who have been able to keep there horses for seven years and running. I think seahorses are like many other domesticated animals, they do better when cared for properly.

I do agree that seahorses are diffucult to keep and should only be kept by expert keeprs, or those willing to do the proper research. I do agree that no seahorse should ever again be removed from the ocean to sell in the home aquarium trade, or for Chinesee medicine. There is no reason to remove them from the ocean when there are so many succsessful breeders out there. I feel the same way about most fish, and corals. It is time we as a society become more responsible for our actions. If you feel this way, only buy CB fish.

I know CITES has placed restrictions on the exporting of seahorses. With recent events many WC seahorses will become virtually impossible to find on the open market. Hopefully this will drive the price so high that captive bred seahorses will be the "better deal". I do think it is ridiculous now that a WC is so much less expensive than a CB, when captive bred seahorse maintain many advantages over the WC's.

The USDA is also looking to place bans on Liverock and macro algaes because of the harmful effects of over harvesting. If you have followed this thread you can guess what is next. . . here is a link

http/www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/weeds/caulerpa/index.html

another

http/forum.seahorse.org/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=18012

 

[KimPossible]

Ohhh NO , and i just posted lighting for an anemone
BooKoo Respect!
Thats all I have to say!
The fact that I am a week late speaks for its self.

 

[Opcn]

Kim, I have no idea what that means, sorry.