Not exactly sure where to post this...

[mellissa1]

I know that sps should not be kept in seahorse tanks, but some people do it anyway. Most people have mushrooms and leathers. Some have gorgs.

Me, I don't have any corals. Only fake ones. I also have a fake anemome. The horses love to hang onto it. Maybe because they can all get on at once and have a "pow wow".

When I figure out how to post a pic in this forum I will post one of my horses. Not really for educational purposes, more for show off purposes.

 

[Opcn]

Even thought they have very primative nervous systems corals need to be treated well too. IMO the fact that your horses like to havg on the anemony is a good reason to not keep them with anemonies, of they dont recognize an anemony and hang out on one thats real they will be eaten, an expensive meal IMO

 

[mellissa1]

No members on either syng forum keeps anemones with their horses. That would be stupid. There is a very long list of uncompatible corals and fish. Anemones are on it along with urchins, cucumbers and dangerous fish ie lions, puffers etc.

Most people keep small fish with their horses rather than corals. I have a goby in my tank. He is quiet and calm and there are no dramas for out competing for food. I also have a few micro hermits in there for a clean up crew. I have some fan worms too. Awesome little critters.

It seems like you have decided that seahorse keepers are uninformed and make poor choices. ie keeping horses in a reef tank and keeping anemones in a horse tank. No one who is informed and researched the topic thoroughly would do that. I don't think that even the most misinformed lfs would let a person put an anemone in their horse tank. That is just common sense. Like putting a pj cardinal in with a volitan, unless it was for feeding purposes. Again a very expensive meal.

 

[Opcn]

You seem to trust your LFS more than I trust mine, I've stoped people from buying seahorses for there FW tank. I can see how you could keep bristle worms or other fish with seahorses as they exist in the seahorses natural environment .

But whaat preytell is dangerous about urchines?do the seahorses impale themselves or get eaten while sleeping?

 

[mellissa1]

Some urchins have spines. I suppose a seahorse could damage it's tale on the spines. I have never kept an urchin so I am following the advice of the experienced keepers on the forums.

 

[pleder]

How funny it is to be on a site for the first time and find a link to pictures of my tank.

Before I enter into this whole debate , I would first like to take time to anwser the question that was purposed.

Seahorses are very delicate and should not be attempted by someone without adaquete research. It is recommended that you have at least one year of salt water expierence before keeping these creatures. That being said a seahorse was my first fish, and he has been with me for three years. It can be done. It will take work. It will take a ton of research.

Since seahorses like to swim vertically you will need to setup a taller tank for them. The tank size should be three times the height of the seahorse, for starters. Different spieces of seahorses will grow to be different heights so it will depend on the spieces you decide.

While wild caught speciments can sometimes be less expensive intially, you will save time and money in the long run by purchasing a captive breed seahorse. A CB seahorse is more resistant to pathogens and woll more readily accept frozen food, such as mysis; while WC speciments can be trained to accept frozen food, some never make the switch and need to be fed live food, such as ghost shrimp, on a daily basis. Keep in mind if you purchase a WC seahorse you will need to have a feeder tank running at all times or make daily trips to your LFS for food.

Purchasing a captive bred seahorse also stops the depletion of the cretures in the wild.CB seahorses are not at all hard to find here in the U.S.

While liverock or livesand is not essentail for survival, it will help with filtration and leave a place to put those seahorse friendly corals. I recommend one pound of liverock per gallon, and a deep sand bed of around 5 inches. Others may disagree, but in my expierence this has worked great for me. If you do not go with these you will need to add additional filtration to your tank.

Added filtration is always a good idea. A simple HOB filter will work, biowheels are also good, as well as cannisters. I believe that a UV sterilizer should be required, especially if you are going to be feeding live food. These units will help not only with pathogens but also with algaes.

Here are the basic tank specifications. You should make sure your tank is fully cycled matured with theses readings before adding a seahorse.
pH - 8.0 to 8.3
Specific gravity - 1.021 to 1.024
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - <20 ppm


Seahorse do not require intense lighting. If you plan on using only fake corals you will only need to light the tank in a manner in which you can see them. If you plan on keeping seahorse friendly corals, then you will need to get a light to sustain them. I would stay away from metal halides, they are to bright for the animals.

Compatibilty with other species is limited. Seahorses are slow eaters, so if an aggresive fish is included in the tank the seahorse will likely starve. Several goby's make great tank mates as do other non aggresive fish. Shrimps also make great companions, but are not safe around fry. Note if the shrimp will fit in the seahorses mouth it will be a snack.

There are several corals that can be kept with seahorses. You will need to avoid anything with a sting or sweeer tentacles as they can proove deadly. Also corals that need intense lighting will not fair well since you cannot have those lights on a seahorse tank.

Different species require different care requirements. Hippocampus Erectus make great starter horses and are among the easier to breed. Hippocampus Reidi are often called Brazalians are also gorgeous. (If you follow Mellissa's link to the seahorse tank with corals you can see my two reidi in there home.) Some species such as pot bellies will require you to purchase a chiller for your tank.

Breeding seahorses is a topic all of it's own. There are several methods and different species require differnet things. Here is a very fast overview.

Seahorse fry need to be seperated from your main tank and raised in a nursery tank. the water will need to be agitaed to keep them from floating on the top so they do not snick air. Rots, Cocopods, and freshly hatched (with in 4 hours) bbs are the nutrient staple for the first ten days. Then enriched bbs and brine shrimp.Larger foods like cycopleeze and finely chopped frozen mysis can be added, after significant growth. Then larger mysis, until they can eat full mysis. Fry need to be fed 4 to 6 times a day, with uneaten food removed promptly. Growout tanks will be required as the seahorses outgrow the small nursery tank.

Seahorse fry rank up there with clown fish as being extremely diffucult to raise. There are community's such as the Seahorse Breeders Network, who have proven very successful at raising seahorses in the home aquarium.

This is all just a very brief very general overview as to what keeping seahorses will entail. It is by no means the end of your search but hopefully enough of a start to anwser some questions and fill your mind with new questions to answer.

For more direct advice from a forum of people who have been successfully keeping seahorses for years please visit seahorse.org. I feel bad solicting the site on another, but this site is not answering your questions.

 

[pleder]

I thought this should be a seperate issue.

We all agree on some common themes here. Seahorse are diffucult to keep and should not be attempted by beginners.

There seems to be some other flaws in the nature of this discusion.

OPCN

You stated that hydroids would make good food for seahorse fry and for dwarfs. This is inaccurate. Hydroids are deadly to both. A hydroid is not a live food source.
Here is an article so you don't have to take my word.

http/www.seahorse.org/library/articles/dwarfKeeping.shtml

As regards to the SPS coral in my tank. As you are such an excellent reef keeper I am sure you can tell at first glance it is completely fake. No abuse of corals going on in my system, sorry to disappoint you. You are correct SPS are not suitable tank mates for seahorses.

While SPS are not suitable tank mates there are several corals and fish that are, as well as some others to be avoided. Here is another article if you are interested.

http/www.seahorse.org/library/articles/tankmates.shtml

Navarre,

I would like to thank you for clarification on the two corals in my tank. As the thread stated they were given to me that week and I had not done appropriate research on there spieces. In fact, that was part of my reason for the post. You have confirmed what the others on the thread stated in regards to spieces.

Your comment of, "The general lack of knowledge we are being accused of showing in regards to seahorse can also be said for the corals and the house keeping they are kept under in the seahorse tanks I have witnessed" was a little tacky. As a "moderator on one of the largest exclusive marine forums in the country" I would have expected better.

To further clarify some more mis-information you sited Reefcentral as the ONLY site to have a dedicated seahorse forum, both seahorse.org, and syngnathid.org also have them.

Zoo's are safe tankmates for seahorses please follow the link above for clarification

Do you have a source for the "99% of successful seahorse keepers have maintained reef tanks for over a year", or was that an independent survey. In my years of expierence with those in the seahorse hobby I would find that 99% is a little high of a number, maybe a slight exageration on your part.

Your example of, "Take for example the anemone trade... 1000 anemones caught and only 1 will survive the export to the wholesaler, from every 100 of these only 1 will survive to live longer than 1 year in captivity," is so outrageous it is almost unbelievable. The maths works out to out of every 100,00 anemones collected in the wild only 1 lives for a year. I have never heard anything like this before. I looked up your source but found nothing stating anything like that. There are so many National Marine Aquariums. I assumed you meant the one in Plymouth since you are in England. Could you PLEASE POST A LINK TO YOUR SOURCE with those facts, I would love to learn more. (I am glad to see they have there seahorse exhibit up and running. Another source for valuable breeding information on seahorses.)

I am very sad to hear that your lfs lost 360 seahorses in a couple of weeks. (You did post that only 10% were sold because the rest died. out of 400 that would mean that 40 were sold and 360 died) Obviously your LFS is filled with morons who had no idea what they were getting in to. You eluded that they knew what they were doing. That would mean a 1600 gallon tank if they were in the same system and a daily feeding of 2400 live ghost shrimp since they were wild caught. That is quite an undertaking for any size store, no wonder they had problems. I can't even picture the size feeder tank they would have to have to keep even a weeks worth of food. I mean it would need to hold 16,800 shrimp just to get through week one. Even if they stocked 100 shrimp per 10 gallons they would need a tank of 1680 gallons just for the feeders. And that's only for one week. The logistics are mind boggling. They must have a huge clientel if they planned on selling 400. They would have to get rid of them pretty fast just to get enough money back to cover the food and 3000 gallons of tanks. Fishstores here in the states are no where near that size.

 

[Navarre]

Well all i can say is PLeder makes an excellant and well written post on the intricacies of Seahorse keeping. And i agree with all that has been said.

The 2nd post needs more careful attention...

Your comment of, "The general lack of knowledge we are being accused of showing in regards to seahorse can also be said for the corals and the house keeping they are kept under in the seahorse tanks I have witnessed" was a little tacky. As a "moderator on one of the largest exclusive marine forums in the country" I would have expected better.

Wasnt meant to be "tacky" just saying what i was observing... As a reef keeper i openly admitted that my knowledge was lacking in seahorses and when people come on the forum i tell them what i do know but i also realise that dedicated owners will know more than i do. The fact that this series of posts has been very constructive to everyone means that i for 1 have learnt alot. After visiting the link to specialist seahorse sites i immedaitaly saw that the corals were nt being kept in "ideal" conditions. My argument that for both species to live and thrive in the same tank poses realy problems. Corals are simply not found in their natural habitat and if the conditions for keeping a seahorse were the same for corals then they would be found among the searhorse environments. So my statement that there is a lack of understanding in corals just as we reefkeeper have a lack in understanding of seahorses holds true IMO. I find it a bit rich to assume that not only do seahorse owners know how to look after their prized seahorses, they also know more than we refkeeprs about our loved corals. )

To further clarify some more mis-information you sited Reefcentral as the ONLY site to have a dedicated seahorse forum, both seahorse.org, and syngnathid.org also have them

Agreed but my arguemtn was this was not a specialist forum for such cretures. All the forums i listed were "Reef" forums. I didnt include the links that you gave as these are far more specialised forums.

Zoo's are safe tankmates for seahorses please follow the link above for clarification

I didnt say they were not safe. I said they were a species of Anemone rather than a coral and this means they might have a sting. It was a question and not a statement i was posing.
They are also deadly poisonous for humans so be careful.

Your example of, "Take for example the anemone trade... 1000 anemones caught and only 1 will survive the export to the wholesaler, from every 100 of these only 1 will survive to live longer than 1 year in captivity," is so outrageous it is almost unbelievable. The maths works out to out of every 100,00 anemones collected in the wild only 1 lives for a year. I have never heard anything like this before. I looked up your source but found nothing stating anything like that. There are so many National Marine Aquariums. I assumed you meant the one in Plymouth since you are in England. Could you PLEASE POST A LINK TO YOUR SOURCE with those facts, I would love to learn more. (I am glad to see they have there seahorse exhibit up and running. Another source for valuable breeding information on seahorses.)

The national marine aquarium didnt post these facts on anemones, this statement has no connection with them.

Its a simple fact. ask on any reef forum of the survivabilty of sea anemones and you will be given this answer. Its common knowledge among serious reefkepers of just how these animals are exploitd in the wild and used basically for fast profits and turnovers. I havent questioned your arguents on keeping a searhorse i find it a little arrogant that reefkeeprs are not believed whenthey state the situation on anemones and they are questioned.

Here are some qoutes form a single forum that specialises in Reefkeeping

many of the older members on here know my feelings towards nennies in aquariums so i wont go there...al i can say is im glad its doing ok

I don't personally think Anemone's are a good idea. The set-ups required for them are incredible, and generally only for the most mature and stable systems, definately not for someone new to the hobby IMO..

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anemones can be difficult to keep going by the posts on here, but I have never had no trouble keeping them myself.
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I think the problem is that, whilst a lot of people do have problems with them, even people who keep them successfully can't keep them for as long as they live in the wild. It's not practical. There's potentially no limit to their lifespan. Biologists reckon they've found anemones that are at least 200 years old. I think if we could breed or propagate anemones in captivity in sufficient numbers, keeping them would be fine, as we wouldn't be removing animals from the wild that live for a long time and play host to a lot of other animals. Another problem is when people buy an anemone, it dies, and they keep on replacing it. Don't get me wrong, I have an anemone, but sometimes it plays on my conscience that I probably won't be able to offer it a full lifespan. Widespread anemone keeping also wouldn't be so bad if anemones were common in the wild. Thing is, their numbers are falling. There's also the problem that when we remove juvenile anemones from the wild, we're eventually depriving whole groups of clownfish (and other animals) a home, thus leaving them open to predators.

I'm with Preds on anemones ... leave them alone. It's back to the 'it's not died so it must be o.k.' debate. For every one which struggles on, or even thrives, hundreds, possibly thousands, die and if we keep buying them then shops will keep selling them. As Preds says in the wild, barring accident or very rarely disease anemones seem to have a massive lifespan (some biologists think their cells show no aging process at all). I'd really like an anemone, but I'm keeping off them. My clowns host in a large leather which closed up when they first chose it, and now closes up if they desert it for a patch of xenia, which they do for a couple of days every few weeks. Do anemone keepers find they thrive on 'chunks' of food a couple of times a week. I ask out of interest because in the wild most anemones don't catch large (i.e. shrimp sized) prey that often. I'm sure large bits of food don't get through the water column and land on an anemone very often on a reef. I read somewhere a while ago that there is evidence that one of the (many) contributors to anemone death in captivity is damage caused by regular ingesting of over large pieces of food which they are ill adapted to digest. In the wild it's constant feeding on plankton, even for the largest anemone. I wish this was all wrong ... I'd love one! A

"Preds"
I don't think it's unlikely that they'll eventually be banned from export. Numbers are falling, and there's only so far it can go before their export is stopped. How long is the longest you've kept an anemone for Gerry? What happened to your anemones? Anemones can live for many, many years. How many reefers have kept an anemone for even 10 years? How many for 50? However, how many keep them for a matter of weeks or months? How many die before they even reach shops, or in shops? The failures outnumber the successes by way too much. That is the problem. And all the time, we're taking more an more anemones out of the wild to feed the demand for them.

Still got to agree with Preds, Gerry. It all depends on the definition of successful, Keeping anemones alive for a few years is a testament to that reefkeeper's skill, but that doesn't make it a success in anemone terms. If for every anemone which lives for five yearsin captivity another five thousand die it can't be justified in environmental terms. I perhaps didn't clarify in an earlier post. I didn't say that anemones don't eat in the wild, just that they don't eat large pieces of food very often. Brian

Hi just wanna say thanks for all the input on this subject, i did not know much about anneomes but i have certainly learnt one thing out of this, and that is people have diferent opinions on keeping anenomea, and for that i respect all the views put forward on hear, I only wish that my lfs had told me the life spans of aneneomes and given me more info on them, lucky for me i have not bought one and i wont be buying one, cause i dont see the point of taking them out of the sea and not being able to look after it propaly,and it eventualy dying, i have instead bought some toadstools, which i know are much easeir to keep than anenomes... I will however be talking to my lfs about the info he did not give me on keeping anenomes, and hopefully he will pass it on to the next customer who wants to buy an anenome. []Thanks A marine tank a day will keep the doctor away

This was just a few quotes froma search i placed under "sea anemone". I could refine it further i guess and get even more for you but i think this proves that there is definately an issue with capturing and keeping such creatures.

I am very sad to hear that your lfs lost 360 seahorses in a couple of weeks. (You did post that only 10% were sold because the rest died. out of 400 that would mean that 40 were sold and 360 died) Obviously your LFS is filled with morons who had no idea what they were getting in to. You eluded that they knew what they were doing. That would mean a 1600 gallon tank if they were in the same system and a daily feeding of 2400 live ghost shrimp since they were wild caught. That is quite an undertaking for any size store, no wonder they had problems. I can't even picture the size feeder tank they would have to have to keep even a weeks worth of food. I mean it would need to hold 16,800 shrimp just to get through week one. Even if they stocked 100 shrimp per 10 gallons they would need a tank of 1680 gallons just for the feeders. And that's only for one week. The logistics are mind boggling. They must have a huge clientel if they planned on selling 400. They would have to get rid of them pretty fast just to get enough money back to cover the food and 3000 gallons of tanks. Fishstores here in the states are no where near that size.

The shop in question is one of hte largest in my area... actually the largest.. But if i eluded that they were a "good" shop then forgive me as this is not my opinion as i dont personally buy any thing from them anymore (got ripped off ).

No they were not in 1600 gallontanks but were kept in several average sized tanks with artificial gorgonians for anchoring were used. They were sold as captive bred but i dont believe it as they simply would not feed (not even on livefoods provided).

"they must have a huge clientel"

Yes they sell over 100,000 fish per week through the store or mail order.. not all of ths is marine of course.. mainly freshwater

Now the very fact that you are talking in terms of "feeder tanks" and "10 shrimps per gallon" means this is moving back into the spotlight of not being an easy fish to start off with...

Most people setup a tank and feed a bit of frozen food daily etc. feedertanks ec would be more than most other people would bother over. alot of people on this forum especially only have enough room for a single 15 gallon tank so extra feeding tanks etc make the statemtn in the beginning that these fish are not beginners fish al the more stronger.

And lastly to qoute from you....

We all agree on some common themes here. Seahorse are diffucult to keep and should not be attempted by beginners.

The whole thread has reached this conclusion because we dont agree on this. Its nice to see that you are in agreement with us that they are not to be attempted by beginners. (at least this is how i read the statement so forgive me if i am wrong)

 

[Opcn]

I never said hydroids were live food, I said that they were worth the live food on the rocks the copapodic life if you will. (funny how you make the same sugestion I sake,LR plus LS, and then critisize me for it)

Also Nearly all corals will do beter with an appropriate flow rate, and none of the ones available are ever found in lagoons (with any kind of regularity) and seahorses are almost never found outside of lagoons on the reefs, theres a reason that two things that live so close dont live together, its not a barrior that keeps them apart but it is that they need different environments. Your keeping one of two geanra of animals in the wrong type of home, you should pick one and do it right IMO.

 

[pleder]

, And hydras can only eat what swims into there grasp, IMO the live food would benefit them more than the partial mortality that would result, Fry do exponentially better when there is a constant suppky of live food

This statement was from you no?

This statement is not accurate and dangerous for seahorse fry or dwarfs.

You opinion is proven innaccurate and proven so by marine biologists. I gave you a link showing you so. If you would research as passionately as you argue you could have a wealth of information.

There are no hydroid eating fish that are safe for keeping with dwarfs or fry.

How do you purpose we train the fry not to swim next to the hydroids?

Please explain how something can result in partial mortality. It was IMO something is alive or dead. It is like being sort of preganant.

OPCN " (funny how you make the same sugestion I sake,LR plus LS, and then critisize me for it)

I have not made the point that liverock or livesand should be kept with fry or dwarfs. I am sorry if I was not clear. Again I have provided a link for you in this regards. Here is another one about seahorse fry.

http/www.seahorse.org/library/articles/erectusfry.shtml

 

[pleder]

I get my information directly from the National Marine Aquarium



If the advice of the National Marine Aquarium is to be ridiculed and ignored then go aherad and purchase them. These guys know alot more about the numbers in the wild and whether they are in decline etc and personally i will stand solidly by their advice.

Navarre this may be why I am confused

 

[pleder]

The national marine aquarium didnt post these facts on anemones, this statement has no connection with them.

Its a simple fact. ask on any reef forum of the survivabilty of sea anemones and you will be given this answer.

You can't have it both ways my friend. You cited a source in your post and now say they had no connection with the statement.

No where in your reef forums quotes was there a link to any real evidence other than people chatting on a board. No where did it say that only 1 out of 100,000 aneonmes collected in the wild will live past a year. No where did it say that 99,999 of these collected would die.

It sounds more like an urban legend. Maybe an exagerated story. I wouldn't call it a blatent lie, but it appears there is no truth behind your words.

I will easily conceed that you know much more about reef keeping then I do, although I am well read. I am sure I have no where near the expierence you do. But I was not answering a reef question with false information. You were giving out false information, with false facts, and quoting sources that were not real to answer a question about seahorses. This thread was not started with a question about reefs. It would be the same as if I responded with the limited information I had about keeping a reef tank.

I feel that this type of activity is what leads to the miseducation of marine hobbyist and is in part responsible for the high mortality rates of various species. We all need to be more responsible.

 

[Navarre]

My statement of the national marine aquarium was that they do not condone keeping seahorses in home aquariums due to the difficulty of keeping them. A sttatement you actually agree with y also saying they need intense research and difficult to keep.

The following sentence under the national marine aquarium is actually a different paragraph which means a change of subject.

No where in your reef forums quotes was there a link to any real evidence other than people chatting on a board. No where did it say that only 1 out of 100,000 aneonmes collected in the wild will live past a year. No where did it say that 99,999 of these collected would die.

It sounds more like an urban legend. Maybe an exagerated story. I wouldn't call it a blatent lie, but it appears there is no truth behind your words.

OK i have had enough, this is abslute crap!

To the person who originally posted this post, i do appologise for alowing this post to deteriorate in such a way. My statement still stands that seahorses are not a beginners fish and intense research is needed for keeping them successfully, (a statement that "pleder" an experienced seahorse keeper actually agres with.

As for the rest, Anemeone are engangered for the exact reasons i have given, this is NOT urban legend its a fact that these cretures are being sold in their thousands and large quantities are dying to this trade. Your statement erves to do more damage to reef keeping than doing any good at all! It would be like me stateing that the chinese natural medicines have mad absolutley no impact on wild seahorse population at all and basically its a myth.

I have already welcomed the far more detailed information that both yourself and Melissa have contributed to this forumand this post in particular. In return I get made to be a liar and the things i beleive in very strongly (reef welfare and anemones in particluar) are attemped to be ridiculed and a "green" light is given for all those reading this to go out and purchase an anemone. Its irrisponsible to make such suggestions when by your own admission you agree that your knowledge on reef keeping is not as well read as other here.
I have tried to keep this civil, i have even talked with Melissa via PM offering any appolgies if this thread has upset anyone, however i feel its time for me to leave the conversation at this point as i have nothing more to offer and personally i feel the post is not going anywhere positive.

We obviously have very different views on reefkeeping, I applaude you for standing by your arguements and i hope you will give me the same courtesy for standing by mine.

 

[blout]

if only jerry springer was still on this would make a great show, but belive it or not i agree with navarre full stop..............................................................

 

[Opcn]

Just FYI I was speaking about the food on the live rock, you can decontaminate the LR of Hyroids if you like bofore hand, or live with the loss of fry (which i have trouble believeing would be total)