Norbert, my Betta, is sick and not getting better with treatment

[jayveechun]

Hi. I am hoping for some help and insight for my sick betta, Norbert. Let me know if you guys have other diagnoses for him as Im not sure what he has but hopefully the items below shed more light for more insight.

Symptoms:

• He has been off-feed for a week. There was 1 day he ate 3 pellets but thats pretty much it within the span of time.
• His face scales have sort of been raised with a small red sore. I'm not certain where this is from BUT I did catch him one day burying his face against catappa leaves which I assume is a way to scratch his face.
• There is a small yellow patch on his cheek covering the gill flaps
• He just sleeps all day on top of my betta hammocks.

My Guesses and Medication

• I assumed this was parasitic in nature (lice? flukes? velvet?) given the distress is localized to the face plus the red spots.
• So I started a 2 week Seachem Paraguard treatment. 2.5ml per morning in his 5 gallon tank. Were on day 5.
• Since the wound became obvious a few days later, I panicked and also added Seachem Kanaplex as an antibiotic. Were 2 days in (given per 48 hours)
• Honestly, he never really perked up or considered eating again despite being 5 days into treatment and I am afraid Im doing the wrong things or misdiagnosing.
• I currently have in my medicine cabinet Melafix, Pimafix, Seachem Kanaplex, Seachem Metroplex, API general cure, and Seachem Paraguard. Im so tempted to change or add but not knowing the diagnosis makes pickign medication scary. I tried using the least medication with the broadest indications to cover bases.

Norbert's maintenance, diet, and housing

• Ive had him since July 2021 so 7 months in. He was sold to me apparently at 6 months age. So that makes him a year old.
• He stays in a 5 gallon tank with a low flow sponge filter.
• Temp is 78-81F as Im in the tropics.
• His place is littered with catappa leaves for tannins.
• His diet is Hikari Pellets given twice daily, 5-6 pellets per feeding. Sometimes I give freeze dried tubiflex for treats.
• Maintenance is 40% weekly water changes. I use Seachem Prime to dechlorinate, and then both Seachem Stability and API Stress zyme to supplement beneficial bacteria.
• Parameters are always ammonia 0ppm, nitrite 0ppm, nitrate ranging from 0-10ppm

 

[hansgruber7]

He doesn't look good, sorry to say. It's difficult to diagnose what could be the problem with him. I assume there are not tank mates? Do you have more pictures of the betta and of the tank to help us diagnose what's going on with him? Sorry you're going through this. It's not fun, I know.

 

[jayveechun]

He doesn't look good, sorry to say. It's difficult to diagnose what could be the problem with him. I assume there are not tank mates? Do you have more pictures of the betta and of the tank to help us diagnose what's going on with him? Sorry you're going through this. It's not fun, I know.

Hi. This is his tank. I just took these now. Its a 5 gallon with a lot of round rocks so his fins wont get caught. And catappa leaves. I keep him in the dark for the most part just in case its velvet and so, I prevent photosynthesis while Paraguard gets these parasites.

He stays up top to rest. And is all he does the past week +

This is him at the moment

 

[Colin_T]

Was his head that funny red colour before this started?
If his head wasn't red before, then he has a bacterial infection.

He is covered in excess mucous, which is normally caused by poor water quality, chemicals, external protozoan parasites, or something in the water that is irritating the fish.

-------------------
Stop adding chemicals.

Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge. This removes the biofilm on the glass and the biofilm will contain lots of harmful bacteria, fungus, protozoans and various other microscopic life forms.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for at least a week. The water changes and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and provide a cleaner environment for the fish to recover in. It also removes a lot of the gunk and this means any medication can work on treating the fish instead of being wasted killing the pathogens in the gunk.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use them. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration to maximise the dissolved oxygen in the water.

See how he looks in a few days time. If he's worse, post more pictures.

 

[jayveechun]

Was his head that funny red colour before this started?
If his head wasn't red before, then he has a bacterial infection.

He is covered in excess mucous, which is normally caused by poor water quality, chemicals, external protozoan parasites, or something in the water that is irritating the fish.

-------------------
Stop adding chemicals.

Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge. This removes the biofilm on the glass and the biofilm will contain lots of harmful bacteria, fungus, protozoans and various other microscopic life forms.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for at least a week. The water changes and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and provide a cleaner environment for the fish to recover in. It also removes a lot of the gunk and this means any medication can work on treating the fish instead of being wasted killing the pathogens in the gunk.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use them. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration to maximise the dissolved oxygen in the water.

See how he looks in a few days time. If he's worse, post more pictures.

This is him a few months ago. He has always had that darker red "cap"

As for irritation, Ill do another water parameter check but his tank is always 0ppm ammonia and nitrite. nitrate is always around 0-10ppm.
Im assuming protozan? If chemicals, then possible the medication (were now on Kanaplex and Paraguard) as I wanna be broad spectrum if its parasitic or bacterial.

Huhu Im so worried.

 

[Colin_T]

You don't want to mix medications. Most chemicals used to treat fish are dosed at a rate that is just enough to kill the parasites but not enough to kill the fish. If you overdose or start adding more than one medication, you can easily poison the fish.

I can't really tell how much red he had when you first got him but I would try doing a huge water change every day for a few days and see what he looks like then.

 

[Lajos_Detari]

By right your tank shouldn't have any parasites if you didn't introduce any new fish or plants for the last few months.

I suspect the "freeze dried tubifex worms" that you feed your fish is the culprit.
According to someone, "freeze drying" may not necessarily kill all the microorganisms carried by the tubifex worms.
The tubifex worms feed on dirty stuff which will have bacteria and parasites.
The bacteria & parasites probably will be inside the tubifex stomach.

Another suspect is what leaves/plants that you put in your tank?
You have a few types of leaves/plants in your tank based on the photos.
Make sure that they are safe and won't leech any chemical/toxic into your tank.

Lastly, how frequent do you change the tank water?
If you change the tank water every week, then it should be fine.

 

[jayveechun]

You don't want to mix medications. Most chemicals used to treat fish are dosed at a rate that is just enough to kill the parasites but not enough to kill the fish. If you overdose or start adding more than one medication, you can easily poison the fish.

I can't really tell how much red he had when you first got him but I would try doing a huge water change every day for a few days and see what he looks like then.

Copy. However, will frequent water changes just stress out an already weak fish? Just got his API water test and its all 0-0-0 as I did a 40% water change 5 days ago.

And post large water change, do you recommend API General cure as its more broad spectrum and is just 1 medication overall? and make the water change per 2 days as the medication has to be redosed per 2 days. My assumption is some ectoparasite given mucus and his face scales being rubbed... And so far, Paraguard from Seachem has been useless so maybe switching to Gen cure with Metronidazole is better...

 

[jayveechun]

By right your tank shouldn't have any parasites if you didn't introduce any new fish or plants for the last few months.

I suspect the "freeze dried tubifex worms" that you feed your fish is the culprit.
According to someone, "freeze drying" may not necessarily kill all the microorganisms carried by the tubifex worms.
The tubifex worms feed on dirty stuff which will have bacteria and parasites.
The bacteria & parasites probably will be inside the tubifex stomach.

Another suspect is what leaves/plants that you put in your tank?
You have a few types of leaves/plants in your tank based on the photos.
Make sure that they are safe and won't leech any chemical/toxic into your tank.

Lastly, how frequent do you change the tank water?
If you change the tank water every week, then it should be fine.

I do change weekly.

Copy on the tubiflex.

As for the plant matter... these are catappa leaves...

 

[Colin_T]

General cure won't help this. It only treats internal protozoan infections and tapeworm.

It's unlikely to be freeze dried tubifex. The freeze drying process gets food to 60C and that kills all common bacteria that can live in or on animals on this planet. Plus if it was from bacteria in the food, it would cause an internal infection and the fish isn't bloated up and doing a stringy white poop.

I would remove the rocks and leaves and give the tank a good clean. Clean the filter too. And do big daily water changes for a week. See how the fish looks after a couple of big water changes.

 

[jayveechun]

General cure won't help this. It only treats internal protozoan infections and tapeworm.

It's unlikely to be freeze dried tubifex. The freeze drying process gets food to 60C and that kills all common bacteria that can live in or on animals on this planet. Plus if it was from bacteria in the food, it would cause an internal infection and the fish isn't bloated up and doing a stringy white poop.

I would remove the rocks and leaves and give the tank a good clean. Clean the filter too. And do big daily water changes for a week. See how the fish looks after a couple of big water changes.

Thanks.

Any thoughts on the yellow “pimple” on the cheek? like is it a specific disease?

 

[Salt]

Maybe it would help to clean the glass in your tank? The sides seem to have a brown growth on them. I'm no expert, actually a newbie, but that's just something I noticed reading the thread.

 

[jayveechun]

Maybe it would help to clean the glass in your tank? The sides seem to have a brown growth on them. I'm no expert, actually a newbie, but that's just something I noticed reading the thread.

Hi.
Done. I typically leave the remnants of indian almond leaves / catappa leaves for tannins and they sort of desintegrate over time. But yup removed the leaves and lots of things. I just did like a 80% water change.

Hoping for the best.

 

[Colin_T]

Any thoughts on the yellow “pimple” on the cheek? like is it a specific disease?

no idea, can't tell from the picture, but there's no major diseases that cause yellow bumps. It's probably just excess mucous.

 

[GaryE]

Fish meds are like human meds. You start with one, you finish - full course, full treatment. Antibiotic resistance is real. You don't mix. Interactions between meds can kill the fish.
I'm pessimistic. We look at a fish and no one can see what is attacking it. Myco? A treatable bacteria? We don't have the skills or equiopment to choose what meds, and if it's Myco, no meds work.

He's still a very young Betta, so it isn't age unless you got him with an underlying condition that shortens lifespans.

Catappa leaves are great, but they acidify water. You've done the water change so you won't know if the tank went really acidic (that could irritate skin, even for a swamp loving Betta). I wouldn't leave them to decay, especially if you have soft water. Decaying leaf matter is a great habitat for velvet to explode in, if you have soft water. Shine a strong beam of light at his head and along his spine and see if there's a coppery film there. If so, it would be Oodinium parasites, a Betta enemy.