Nitrite & Ph Problems

[ranjohns]

Tank: 30 g, 30 in wide, 55W cf (AHSupply) raised 4 inches, 350 g/hr HOB filter, F 78 degrees, nearly fully planted in Seachem fluorite, one somewhat large piece of Malayasian wood (boiled for 1 hours before placed in tank + snails (I remove at least 15/day).

I'm in my 63rd day of a fishless cycle. (Is this a record?) ph has been steady at 7.2 to 7.6 since early Feb. Ammonia from 5ppm to 0 at 12 hours since Feb 2; Nitrites from 5ppm to 0.25 since March 12 until yesterday when it went to 0 along with a ph crash from 7.2 to to 6.

This morning pH was back up to 7.6. I dosed to 5ppm ammonia this morning. This evening, 12 hours later, pH was down to 6.6 and Nitrites to 2.0 (two)! Nitrates have been at 40 for a long time. I use API drops. GH and KH, using API strips, usually at 180 and 120 is 180 and 0 tonight.

I'm dosing Seachem micros (Flourish) and Macros N, P & K plus Excel according to Seachem's recommendations. I've had a bit of diatoms which is on the verge of disappearing. For the last 3 days I doubled the amount of Excel - I read somewhere that increasing carbon dose would help eliminate diatoms.

My last 50% water change was on March 11. I've done mini-changes - approx 4 gallons - every time I do plant maintenance or vacuum diatoms, which is about every 6 days; the last of which was this afternoon.

What should I do next?

Thanks for any comments or questions.

Ranjohns

 

[fatheadminnow]

Are you using the API liquid test kit and is the pH still down?

What I would do the next time the pH is low is do a large water change, like 90%.

Also, since you have no fish in the the tank, raise the temperature up above 80 degrees, as the higher the temperature is, the faster your beneficial bacteria will colonize.

62 days is a little long, but not all cycles are short, just be patience and take your time.

Also, you really dont need to water changes unless necessary. As you have no fish in the tank, therefore you do not have to worry about high levels of toxic levels or anything.

But what I would do right now is raise the temperature up above 80 degrees, and if the pH is still low, do a large water change, somewhere around 90% would be good.

A low pH will stall a cycle. It causes your beneficial bacteria to become dormant.

-FHM

 

[ranjohns]

Are you using the API liquid test kit and is the pH still down?

What I would do the next time the pH is low is do a large water change, like 90%.

Also, since you have no fish in the the tank, raise the temperature up above 80 degrees, as the higher the temperature is, the faster your beneficial bacteria will colonize.

62 days is a little long, but not all cycles are short, just be patience and take your time.

Also, you really dont need to water changes unless necessary. As you have no fish in the tank, therefore you do not have to worry about high levels of toxic levels or anything.

But what I would do right now is raise the temperature up above 80 degrees, and if the pH is still low, do a large water change, somewhere around 90% would be good.

A low pH will stall a cycle. It causes your beneficial bacteria to become dormant.

-FHM

FHM, first, thanks for your reply and advice.

I just set the temp to 86F and rechecked the pH - it has dropped to 6. I'll check the pH again in the morning. If it is still low, or below 7, then I'll do a 90% wc, as you suggested, reload ammonia to 5ppm, check the pH periodically and will post results at the 12 hour mark.

I am using an API liquid test kit for all tests except GH/KH for which I use an API test strip. The test strip is probably not reliable but I'm not too concerned as the water her is fairly hard. Or, should I be? I could get a liquid GH/KH test kit.

I have 2 follow-up questions. First, should I keep the temp at 86 until my cycle is completed? Secondly, what might cause pH to drop?

Thanks again,

Ranjohns

 

[fatheadminnow]

Yes, keep the temperature at 86, this will help the bacteria colonize faster.

As long as you have the API liquid test kit to test for the four basic levels(ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH) you should be just fiine.

You mentioned that you added some Malayasian wood earlier in your this thread. I know Mopani wood, which I have in my tank, can lower pH. So if Malayasian wood is anything like Mopani wood than it could have an effect on your pH. And if you have relativity soft water, than the wood can really mess around with your pH.

Try really hard not to let the pH drop below 6.6. If it starts to drop below 6.6, than the bacteria start to slow down, and if the pH drops any lower, the bacteria will become dormant, and your cycle will stall. And this could explain why your cycle is taking a little longer than usual.

I believe adding crush coral to your filter raises the pH(can someone clarify), and there are pH buffers that you can add to your water to maintain a higher pH. API makes some pH buffers, I haven't gave them a try yet, but since they are made by API, I bet they are good and will work.

Also, adding certain types of rocks to your aquarium can also raise your pH. Not sure which types of rocks though. hopefully someone with a little more experience can help out here.

So your main priority is whenever the pH drops, do a large water change to get it back up.

What is the pH of your tap water? Have you checked it?


-FHM

 

[ranjohns]

Yes, keep the temperature at 86, this will help the bacteria colonize faster.

As long as you have the API liquid test kit to test for the four basic levels(ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH) you should be just fiine.

You mentioned that you added some Malayasian wood earlier in your this thread. I know Mopani wood, which I have in my tank, can lower pH. So if Malayasian wood is anything like Mopani wood than it could have an effect on your pH. And if you have relativity soft water, than the wood can really mess around with your pH.

Try really hard not to let the pH drop below 6.6. If it starts to drop below 6.6, than the bacteria start to slow down, and if the pH drops any lower, the bacteria will become dormant, and your cycle will stall. And this could explain why your cycle is taking a little longer than usual.

I believe adding crush coral to your filter raises the pH(can someone clarify), and there are pH buffers that you can add to your water to maintain a higher pH. API makes some pH buffers, I haven't gave them a try yet, but since they are made by API, I bet they are good and will work.

Also, adding certain types of rocks to your aquarium can also raise your pH. Not sure which types of rocks though. hopefully someone with a little more experience can help out here.

So your main priority is whenever the pH drops, do a large water change to get it back up.

What is the pH of your tap water? Have you checked it?


-FHM

FHM, I did a 70% wc earlier to day. When I checked the pH it was back up to 7.6 so I stopped short of a 90% wc. The tap pH turns out to be between 7.2 and 7.6

Would the wood we have in the tank cause the pH to drop? It has been in the tank since day 1. While I haven't checked the pH regularly, that is, less than once per week, it hadn't measured less than 7.2 until yesterday. I'll check it daily until the tank cycles and will post daily

I have the API liquid master test kit and will post my numbers. I'll also keep the temp at 86F.

Once we cycle, I'll do another larger wc then stock with rasboras.

Thanks again. Your advice was spot on.

Ranjohns

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, good advice from FHM. Overall, all the things you describe make sense. The temp has been pretty cold for cycling, although I'd probably only bring it up to 84F/29C as the 86F kind of moves in the direction of encouraging other bacteria, just like 8ppm ammonia will, and I just think 78 to 86 is kind of an abrupt change for the plants, although they may not show any effect. Also you have carbonate hardness in the "soft" range (120mg/l = 6.7dH), so not terribly high buffer, thus it eventually got used up by the acids being created during cycling. And a heavily planted tank that's healthy will compete with the bacteria for the ammonia, so you have to expect a slower cycling process. All those things added up would seem to explain the long time its taking.

You sound close to finished though, so good luck. Tank sounds nice.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[ranjohns]

Yes, good advice from FHM. Overall, all the things you describe make sense. The temp has been pretty cold for cycling, although I'd probably only bring it up to 84F/29C as the 86F kind of moves in the direction of encouraging other bacteria, just like 8ppm ammonia will, and I just think 78 to 86 is kind of an abrupt change for the plants, although they may not show any effect. Also you have carbonate hardness in the "soft" range (120mg/l = 6.7dH), so not terribly high buffer, thus it eventually got used up by the acids being created during cycling. And a heavily planted tank that's healthy will compete with the bacteria for the ammonia, so you have to expect a slower cycling process. All those things added up would seem to explain the long time its taking.

You sound close to finished though, so good luck. Tank sounds nice.

~~waterdrop~~

Waterdrop, I lowered the temp to 84. I last added ammonia at noon today. So, I'll post numbers tomorrow night, after another 12 hour cycle.

I'll get around to posting a picture. While it is nearly fully planted many plants have quite a bit left in their growing cycles. I've pruned quite a bit, so the payoff will come later. Even with that, we've all enjoyed the process and look forward to buying some fish. All in due time.

Thanks for you help and interest,

Ranjohns

By the way, pH has remained steady at 7.2 through the day and evening.

Ranjohns

 

[ranjohns]

Day 66 Fishless cycle

Temp 84F
dosed Seachem Excel and Flourish micros

dosed ammonia to 5ppm

After 12 hours:
Ammonia 0 Nitrites 0.25 Nitrates 40 GH 180 KH 120

pH tested 4 times: all just below 7.6
pH crash on day 64; 70% water change day 65

We're back on track.

As we anticipate adding fish do you any thoughts to share about:

1. whether or not to remove snails introduced with plants? Today I removed at least 30 to 35 of varying sizes. They don't appear to eat any plants but multiply rapidly.

2. we like the looks of Harlequin and Galaxia Rasboras. I read one nearly 2-year-old post which indicated that the Galaxia population in the wild might be threatened by over-fishing/removal. Has this been resolved? Has in-tank reproduction filled demand? We also think it would be a good idea to buy one Crossocheilus Siamensis.

Thanks,

Ranjohns

Tank: 30 g, 30 in wide, 55W cf (AHSupply) raised 4 inches on 9 hrs/day, 350 g/hr HOB filter, F 84 degrees, nearly fully planted in Seachem fluorite, one somewhat large piece of Malayasian wood (boiled for 1 hour before placed in tank) + snails. Dose Seachem Excel daily (more than recommended), Flourish micros every day before and after N, P & K, according to Seachem recommendations.

 

[ranjohns]

Meant to say that I dose micros on days 2, 4 & 6; macros on days 1, 3, 5 & 7

 

[waterdrop]

Hi ranjohns,

Your fishless cycle sounds nicely on track, even if slow and steady. Showing only that small bit of nitrite and no ammonia after only 12 hours from adding a full 5ppm should reassure you that you've got a couple of really healthy bacteria populations now and your transition to fish should be quite smooth.

As far as fish are concerned, snails are harmless of course and as far as I know the issues surrounding snails all pertain to owners simply feeling they look unsightly when their numbers increase too much, distracting from the observers enjoyment of the aquascape. Its the small pond snails I'm mostly referring to of course, not the occasional large mts or other special snail. So most hobbyists, I believe, try to just generally maintain continuous control over both snails and algae, which can both at times be things that come and go, sometimes at pleasant levels, sometimes not. Both can be kept down by paying some attention to them during weekly cleanings. Just try to remove/crush as many snails as possible during a cleaning session and if you do that on a regular basis, you'll be ahead of them I think.

I really like looking at harlequins in planted tanks, they have one of the most unique color combinations out there, so subtle and seemingly changeable! And their shoaling behavior in and out of plants is gorgeous. Don't know the answers to your other species questions, though.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[ranjohns]

Day 67 All's ok. After 12 hours and 5ppm Ammonia, Nitrites at 0.25. pH measured twice at 7.6.
Took out 72 snails today, if anyone is counting.

Waterdrop, thanks for your description of Harlequins. I think we'll go with them.

Ranjohns
Indianapolis

 

[waterdrop]

Day 67 All's ok. After 12 hours and 5ppm Ammonia, Nitrites at 0.25. pH measured twice at 7.6.
Took out 72 snails today, if anyone is counting.

Waterdrop, thanks for your description of Harlequins. I think we'll go with them.

Ranjohns
Indianapolis

72,wow, definately going to have to keep after them...

one of our phd's who just defended got a job up there at Lily, so is Indy bound!

 

[ranjohns]

Waterdrop, nitrites and pH steady at 0.25 and 7.6, respectively. Snails down 42.

I've noticed a small crack in the lower right front corner of the tank, just above the band. Seems to be just on the outside and not through to the interior. My first thought is to watch it; see if it gets any larger. Or, should I apply a bit of aquarium grade sealant?

Ranjohns

 

[ranjohns]

Day 69 Fishless cycle

pH crash again from 7.6 to nearly 6.6 between 8am and 11pm. After a 50% water change the pH is back to 7.6.

A few observations:
1. My F 84 degree tank is in day 70 of a fishless cycle. I dose ammonia to 5ppm daily. Nitrites are at 0.25 after 12 hours. Please see earlier post in this thread for tank description and parameters.

2. filled bucket with tap water. Checked pH during 3 hour period. pH steady at 7.6. I'll keep and check this water sample for 48 hours to confirm or eliminate tap water as cause of pH crash.

3. Using long-handled tweezers I've not removed but smashed and left in the tank (and apologized to) the remains of 60 to 70 snails per day for the last week. Prior to this week for approx two weeks, I squashed and removed the remains of 20 to 40 snails each day. These numbers are an approximation, but fairly accurate. Also, not all of the snails are full-grown. Most are small to very small; nonetheless, a significant amount each day. Note, for the past week I did not remove the remains. I simply let them drop into the tank. Can a certain amount of animal carcass change the pH, one way or the other, up or down?

4. I've overdosed Seachem Excel (carbon) - 5 to 6ml/day total, every day for 1 week. Seachem recommends 3ml every day or every other day for a 30 gal tank. Tonight I read the following at http/www.ratemyfishtank.com/articles/107 :

Add Carbon Dioxide – ....increasing the carbon dioxide in your tank lowers the
pH. Therefore, pumping in more carbon dioxide would result in a lower pH.

My first pH crash was one week ago, 24 hours after I started overdosing Seachem Excel. My 2nd pH crash, or trending to a crash, came today after continuing to overdose Excel. Could this have contributed to my pH issues?

5. I don't know what the GH and KH are doing. I ran out of API GH/KH strip tests yesterday and won't be able to replace the strips with a liquid kit until Monday.

6. I have a HOB Marineland Penguin Power Filter 350B - 350 gal/hr. For some time now, the lip over which the water exits the bio-wheel compartment and enters the tank is quite dirty, scummy. Earlier, I thought it might be part of the bacterial colony and left it alone. Today it had taken on a greenish tint. So, I removed most of it with a damp paper towel. The interior of the bio-wheel compartment is quite dirty. Should I wipe it clean, too. Or, not? While I don't suspect a connection here with the dropping pH, I would like to know what to do or not to do about this.

Thanks in advance for any comments or suggestions.

Ranjohns

 

[OldMan47]

A part of your ammonia source is the crushed snails. They will decay in the tank and produce ammonia. That is ammonia on top of your intentional dosing. What that means is the bacteria are trying to deal with much more ammonia than you are adding as ammonia. Try removing the snails and tossing them instead, it may affect the readings that you are getting. Please let us know how it comes out.