Newbie Post... Hello!

[matt_99]

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum, although ive used car forums for years, hopefully this well be as useful!

I'll be having a good read and search as best i can over the next day or so, but here's some details on what I have done, I'm sure someone will shout up if I'm doing wrong!

Approx 20 Gallon tank, with fine gravel, couple of wood and plastic ornaments and some plastic greenery. All washed in boiling water, rinsed with cold and put in. under gravel filter with air pump and stone running for three days. Heater running for two, now at suspected 25 degrees, though a better thermometer is due to arrive tomorrow. Also arriving tomorrow is a water pump with foam insert filter, and some air stones and a better, quieter air pump.

The plan is to introduce the new water pump, and a 4" stone to help airate the water and double check temperature is right.

Now my plans before were to let it 'filter' without fish until thursday, then monitor with test kits over the next 4 weeks, changing 25% water per week, unless something was going wrong with the levels of N, N and A.

Then fish to start are 5 dalmation mollys, 5 neon (or glowlight) tetra's, and 4 albino cory's.

This is where I'm at currently... should i be doing anything differently?

As for fish choice... long term i love the Glass Ghost Catfish, my girlfriend loves the dalmation mollys and I've seen some tropical red crabs, Freshwater puffers, red tail sharks and the bristlenose suckers.

I gather the puffers are a no no due to aggression? Are there any major conflicts with the others mentioned in the same tank ( I realise i may want a larger tank before having all of the mentioned).

Basically i want to make sure the start fish I use are going to be ok with how im setting up at the mo, and that the fish im putting in from the start aren't going to stop me having the fish i want at the end.

Thanks in advance.

Matt

 

[5teady_2012]

You cant add fish until you have cycled the tank, just leaving water in the tank for a few days will do nothing, the nitrogen cycle must be started in order for the filter/undergravel filter to mature with beneficial bacteria, to start the cycle you must add ammonia to the tank (see the cycling thread CLICK HERE )

Its good you have got a test kit cos it will be needed much whilst cycling the tank.

Welcome to the forum, you will be guided well here and find all you need

 

[matt_99]

okay, will have a read. We've been to three local tropical fish shops and all we've been advised is to let it run with the startup fish and then manage the levels?

Will have to read up.

 

[Curiosity101]

The shops are advising you to do a fish-in cycle (whether they understand this or not). Personally it'll be easier on you and the fish if you fishless cycle (hopefully you'll agree once you've done some reading).

Under gravel filters are rubbish. The bacteria grow on the gravel so if you ever want to change your substrate then your tank goes back to being uncycled. Also it means all the gunk gets pulled down into the gravel where it rots and becomes unsightly. This also leads to the filer clogging and it's a pain to clean and replace.

You say you've got an internal box filter coming...? I'd really recommend just using that (if it's big enough ie. 5-10x the lph of water volume).

Also you don't need an air pump/bubble curtain to aerate the water. It's good to have one on hand for if you ever need to medicate and so need to maximise levels of oxygen. Most normal times though all you need is surface agitation which can be produced by the filter alone.

Whichever method of cycling you pick, DONT start with that many fish! With your size tank I'd start with A SINGLE molly.

Also as for your other fish ideas...
Glass catfish grow pretty large, too big for 20gal
Dalmation mollies should be fine
Red claw crabs are brackish and not even 'mainly' aquatic. Don't buy them no matter what a fish shop says, they also try to catch bottom level and low swimming fish.
Freshwater puffers are fine but only in species only tanks.
Red tail black sharks require really large tanks to allow for their size and agressive territorial nature.

What did you mean by 'long term' as opposed to start fish by the way?

 

[5teady_2012]

okay, will have a read. We've been to three local tropical fish shops and all we've been advised is to let it run with the startup fish and then manage the levels?

Will have to read up.

This is always the case with fish stores, they never tell you the MAIN thing to do, its amazing just how many stores throughout the world do not tell people the most important thing, and that is, your fish tank muist be cycled, if you take water and just place it in the tank, use dechlorinator to make the water safe, thats all good and well.... but there is no nitrogen cycle going to start in the tank cos to do that either requires, fish (which will kill them or hurt them in a bad way), or ammonia which is how most people do it, (thats all explained in that tread i gave you).....

Its very important for your fish to go in to a cycled tank or you will have endless probs..

Another way is to get some mature media (see if your lfs will gravel vac u dirt out to add to your undergravel system) mine do this for people.

Mine do mature media for internal filters too.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, very good advice from LM and C101 above! Welcome to TFF Matt!

You are one of the lucky ones. You have stumbled on a true hobbyist forum after hearing a bunch of typical LFS stuff but before you have brought home fish! Don't be intimidated, a real hobbyist forum is a weird place and you will hear a bunch of things like "cycling" that sound strange at first but I hope you will eventual feel, as I do, that this is the best thing that could have ever happened to you if you really want to learn it right.

LM is right, the -main- thing somehow is often skipped, Cycling! There is some core magic that's been at the heart of the hobby for many decades but it has only gradually been communicated about with clarity in more recent years and the ability to approach it with increased flexibility is really quite recent. When fish move water through their gills to take on oxygen and unload carbon dioxide, they also unload a lot of ammonia (NH3) into the water. The reason we humans don't do this is because we are on dry land and have a greater need to retain water, so we've developed an elaborate system of kidneys and other organs to separate our ammonia and water inside ourselves. Fish have got water all around, so they just dump the ammonia directly. In nature, this ammonia is usually diluted immediately by lots of water, maybe thousands or millions of gallons!

OK, so you're getting the picture: we put our fish in a much smaller container than nature and the ammonia coming off their gills starts building up.. but its not only that! Fish waste, excess fishfood (they're the same thing, doesn't matter whether it goes through the fish intestine or not as far as the tank environment is concerned) and plant debris are all readily broken down (by swarms of bacteria we call heterotrophic or saprotrophic bacteria) into... Ammonia! Ammonia, even in tiny amounts, causes permanent gill damage leading to shortened lives or death for our fish.

The "cycle" (short for the Nitrogen Cycle taught in environmental science) is carried out mainly by what we call a "biofilter", which is one of the 3 functions of a good filter. The biofilter consists of two mature colonies of two specific species of autotrophic bacteria. The first of these, Nitrosomonas spp. (the ammonia oxidizers or A-Bacs for short) take the ammonia in the tank and convert it to nitrite(NO2). Great!

Unfortunately, nitrite(NO2) is -also- a deadly poison to our tropical fish! Nitrite, even in tiny amounts, attaches itself to the hemoglobin protein on the fish red blood cells and causes a chemical reaction that basically turns the nice red blood cell to a useless brown mush which can no longer carry oxygen. So the first thing that nitrite does is permanently damage nerves and especially the brain, leading to shortened lives (if it is reversed) or to death.

The second bacteria, Nitrospira spp. (the nitrite oxidizer or N-Bac for short) converts nitrite(NO2) into nitrate(NO3), which fortunately is a much less negative substance to have in our tank and which can be removed with weekly water changes. These are the basics of the magic of the "biofilter" and the Nitrogen Cycle. Read about them in the Nitrogen Cycle article by BTT, then the Fishless Cycling article by RDD and then read the tank startup article by Miss Wiggle. I'm sure we'll talk about this more!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[matt_99]

ok thanks all...

Will do some more reading, we've put off buying the fish for now. Going to go get some ammonia and some test kits today.

Also now on the look out for some mature media!

The aeration is also a visual thing too.

The internal filter ive bought is 100 gallon per hour, as HERE

Heres a picture of the tank at the moment... Intend to put the water pump at the end where the greenery and heater is so the warm water is cycled around the tank more efficiently.

With that filer would you recommend removing the under gravel tray all together?

After a bit more reading plans so far are...

5 zebra danios once the tank has cycled.
After two weeks of tank being at good levels, 6 Dalmation Mollys
After a further two weeks, 4 or 5 albino cory's.

Long term im planning on getting a larger 4 or 5ft long tank to create a unique centre piece at home, so im not going to worry too much at the minute on how much the fish will grow too.

Long term I'd want some glass ghost catfish so will probably get 5 or 6 after the above when a larger tank is in posession!

 

[waterdrop]

Many of us like and use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit or the Nutrafin Mini-Master Test Kit (or there are better individual ones made by Salifert, but any of these should be adequate in my opinion.) Be advised that many members would probably be working with filters probably costing 6 to 10 times that one, but it doesn't mean that one won't work. Media volume (amount of filtration material material the box can hold) and design to not allow the water to "cheat" and get around the media without being filtered are important.

What are the types of media in the filter? Carbon, for intance, is often included but not something we hobbyists normally use, as it lasts only 3 days! We use other materials, dish scrubbies, ceramic ball structures and other odd things that provide a lot of the right type of surface area for our autotrophic bacteria. The members can help with this quite a bit.

Finding the right type of ammonia can be an adventure and you may want to remind us whether you are UK or USA (UK - Boots, USA - Ace Hardware are starting points.) Ammonia needs to not have fragrances, dyes, surfactants or soaps.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[matt_99]

I'm in the Uk, so boots it is... will keep my eye out.
That filter comes with sponge and carbon, Will sponges proved suitable surface area?

What should i expect to pay for a master test kit?

 

[OldMan47]

Welcome to the forum Matt.
As WD and others have already said, a fishless cycle will serve you and your new fish well. If you are willing to do all of the work involved, you can also do a fish-in cycle on the tank. A third alternative is to set up a Walstad style planted tank and let the plants serve as your filter without any worry about a cycle. The Walstad tank is usually reserved for more experienced fish keepers because it requires an entirely separate skill at growing plants rapidly to offset the nitrogen production by the fish in the tank. The best bet for the typical new fish keeper is to avoid being a fish keeper for a few weeks and become a water tender instead. If you can get your water to play, adding in fish to a cycled tank is very simple indeed.
I have a link to each of the fishless and fish-in cycle topics in my signature area.

 

[matt_99]

Have removed water today after running cycle, have used some bottled bacteria stuff given to me by the shop, can't do much harm...

readings are as follows:

Ammonia 0.25 mg/l
Nitrate 50
Nitrite 0
TH between 7 and 14
KH between 3 and 6
PH 7.6
Temp stable at 25 degrees


Seems reasonable... will see what happens over the next few days

 

[Ryefish]

You can find the API Test kits online (ebay is good) for half the price of local shops. In a shop i'd expect to pay between £30-£40

 

[Twinklecaz]

I paid £31 for mine at Pets at Home. I know I could have got it cheaper online but I was impatient!

 

[matt_99]

I paid £10 for a nitrate, nitrite, ph, kh, th kit. (50 test strips)

And paid £7 for ammonia kit, three bottle drip type, 50 tests also.

Also got 2 litres of Nutrafin AquaSafe plus, (dechlorinator etc) for £15.

 

[Curiosity101]

Those strips are notoriously innacurate. For £18 on ebay you'd have had a full set...

Nevermind, you've decided on fishless cycling so it's not a huge issue really. Good luck with everything. Do you have your ammonia ready?

Oh and just a note, seachem prime is a very high quality and concentrated conditioner. 5ml does 200l so it works out pretty cheap in the long run.