Need Help Cycling

[kittens]

I have a 20 gallon tank for about 6 weeks. I have learned that there are as many fish hobbyists as there are opinions and "expert advice". I don't think my tank has ever cycled properly and I have lost a lot of fish to ammonia poisoning. I presently have 5 guppies and 2 african drawf frogs. I know my tank was overstocked but that has been corrected. My water tests high for ammonia (danger level), no nitrates and about 40 ppm nitrate. pH is about 7. I have tried partial (between 10-25%) water changes and ammo lock every other day. The clinical signs for the fish are hanging around the top of the tank and staying close to each other. They do not swim around much and aren't eating much. I only feed them a small amount every other day. I don't know what else to do. I've been told to ride it out and it will eventually correct. Others have told me to do a full water change and start from scratch. I'm frustrated and would appreciate some advice. Has anyone had any experience with this? Thank you for your help.

 

[beanz8]

You need to read this Fish In Cycling as you are doing a fish in cycle, and you need to do a large water change immediately, i think the experts on here will suggest an 85% change with dechlorinated tank temp matched water.

This site has taught me a lot of new things keep going!

 

[The chilly dipper]

I have a 20 gallon tank for about 6 weeks. I have learned that there are as many fish hobbyists as there are opinions and "expert advice". I don't think my tank has ever cycled properly and I have lost a lot of fish to ammonia poisoning. I presently have 5 guppies and 2 african drawf frogs. I know my tank was overstocked but that has been corrected. My water tests high for ammonia (danger level), no nitrates and about 40 ppm nitrate. pH is about 7. I have tried partial (between 10-25%) water changes and ammo lock every other day. The clinical signs for the fish are hanging around the top of the tank and staying close to each other. They do not swim around much and aren't eating much. I only feed them a small amount every other day. I don't know what else to do. I've been told to ride it out and it will eventually correct. Others have told me to do a full water change and start from scratch. I'm frustrated and would appreciate some advice. Has anyone had any experience with this? Thank you for your help.

hey kittens may i suggest a few things to the contrary?
I lost a lot of fish to ammonia poisoning, what you should do is this
. 50 % water change everyday (this is important, if you love your fish you will do this for them)
.stop adding ammo lock, this will not help you in the long run you need a little ammonia in the water to start you cycle.
.keep an eye on your fishies look for symptoms.
.keep doing you water changes 50 percent every day and stick to it ...trust me on this one.
.keep your fish in the tank at all times, taking them out will be the thing that finishes them off(stress)

no matter how frustrated you are, keep up the work and you will get results.....STOP USING AMMO LOCK!!!!

CHANGE AS MUCH WATER AS YOU CAN EACH DAY !!! 50 TO 85% AND YOUR FISH WILL LOVE YOU FOR IT AND YOU WILL SEE THEM PERK UP IN AN INSTANT.

good luck and keep us posted

 

[kittens]

Thank you both for your input. I will do a water change immediately. I deal with Big Al's and the last thing the manager there told me yesterday was not to do any more water changes because that was preventing the tank from cycling. I'm more than happy to do anything I can for the fish. I'll keep you posted. I also read the suggested article. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good book on fish?

 

[waterdrop]

Many of us have whole libraries of good books on fishkeeping but I'm afraid they pale in comparison to the kind of intense up-to-date info you'll get by participating on a serious hobby site like this one. You are in a Fish-In cycling situation and the article in our Beginners Resource Center is just a great place to start, along with some of the comments up above. Good luck!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miles_hot]

kittens
the amount of chemicals which your bacteria actually need to get started is actually very small. I would add that you should be testing the water every day before (and preferably a bit after) each water change - this will give you information on how the bacteria are getting on and will allow you to see the beneficial effect that yourr hard wok is having without having to use fish mortality as the measure. It may also allow you to know when to ammend the 50-95% water changes to something less.

HTH

Miles

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, agree, it is incorrect to feel the tank won't cycle due to the water changes. The tank will slowly cycle even with tiny amounts of ammonia present (and it usually greatly helps people to think about what is happening when an ideal fully-cycled tank is functioning: we measure zero ppm nitrite and ammonia in this condition and yet we know both bacterial populations in the filter are large and healthy. They are feeding from the tiny amounts of ammonia that our kits can't measure.)

Your goal in Fish-In Cycling is to keep figuring out the percentage and frequency of water you need to change such that you are minimizing the occurances and exposure time of little spikes in ammonina or nitrite above the 0.25ppm safety level. You want to be able to get back home again from work or school or whatever in time to do another water change if necessary. It is those extended periods where either of these poisons creeps up above 0.25ppm and stays there that you are of course causing gill and/or nerve damage to the fish.

In Fish-In Cycling you don't really get very good feedback about how the cycling process is progressing. Instead, you have to just patiently keep going forward doing your tests and changing water to manually maintain an ok situation for the fish and then one day to your surprise you will find you are getting successive zero readings and you can begin to trust that the filter has gradually cycled, that the bacteria populations have caught up.

Once you get a couple days in a row where you are not having to change any water and you are still getting full zero readings, you have either reached or are close to the end of the process. Of course, it is important to balance that against how large your last water changes were, as a few large ones can fool you in to thinking your zeros are completely due to the bacteria, so you have to always be working forward and developing a feel for it and being watchful of your results.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[kittens]

Thanks for all your help everyone. I appreciate any input. I did a 50% water change yesterday and noticed the fish were much more active. By nightfall, they were less active but at least weren't hiding. I'm about to do another water change but will take your advice and test the water first. How soon after the water change should I test it again? I've stopped using ammo lock. Will the reading on the ammonia be accurate since I've been using the ammo lock? Yesterday's water test showed 8 ppm for ammonia, 0 for nitrate and about 60 ppm for nitrate. Also, Big Al's recommended their product Bio Support to be added once per week. Is this a good idea?

Thanks,
Jackie

 

[The chilly dipper]

Thanks for all your help everyone. I appreciate any input. I did a 50% water change yesterday and noticed the fish were much more active. By nightfall, they were less active but at least weren't hiding. I'm about to do another water change but will take your advice and test the water first. How soon after the water change should I test it again? I've stopped using ammo lock. Will the reading on the ammonia be accurate since I've been using the ammo lock? Yesterday's water test showed 8 ppm for ammonia, 0 for nitrate and about 60 ppm for nitrate. Also, Big Al's recommended their product Bio Support to be added once per week. Is this a good idea?

Thanks,
Jackie

hey kittens good work!!!!!
when using ammo lock you will read 0ppm on the ammonia test but the ammonia will still be there, ammo lock just makes the ammonia less toxic.

your fish will perkup after everywater change as you have noticed but yes they do indeed fall into a state of "depression" as soon as time takes its toll.

after a water change its best to test 2 hours after a change but 1 hour is enough

dont buy biosupport cos it dont work very well but you can if you want.

GOOD WORK!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Smells a bit fishy]

Ammo lock is worth while in a fish in cycle, however I think SeaChem prime is much better, as it does the same thing converts ammonia into less toxic ammonium for 24 hours. This will also show up on the test kit as ammonia, unless your test kit (very rarely) only tests for ammonia not ammonium aswell. Sorry to correct you on that chilly dipper.

Another good thing that prime does it also takes away the toxicity of nitrites as well (not sure how it does that one) for again 24 hours. And finally it's a really concentrated dechlorinator also, so far cheaper than I think, any other one on the market

 

[Miles_hot]

8ppm ? Many more water changes needed as soon as possible. Run the filter for a short time between to flush it through. Make dire you add enough dechlorinator for the whole tank as you start to add the water.
Well done, keep going and good luck
Miles

 

[waterdrop]

Something must be wrong with that reading - 8ppm is too much - the fish would be dead in no time. What was the kit?

If you have a good liquid-reagent based kit then anytime the poisons get above 1 or 2ppm the water changes should be about as large as you can make them, just leaving enough water that the fish are still covered.

WD

 

[kittens]

I have the API chemical test kit...the one where you add drops to test tubes. I've been told it's the most accurate. I've done two 50% water changes so far and 3 of the fish are doing well...swimming around and perkier. However, one of the guppies is on its side today near the top of the tank. It's not looking good for him. I have been using Big Al's water conditioner--it's a liquid that you add to the water. I'll try doing a bigger water change. However, with these water changes, I'm still getting the same readings...no nitrites, high ammonia but the nitrates have come down a bit...about 20ppm. I haven't heard of Sea Chem prime. Does anyone know where to get it? I live in Oshawa, Ontario and the only places here to buy fish supplies are Big Al's and Pet Smart. Do any of you buy your products online and is that a good idea?

Any suggestions of what else to do? I'm worried about how the one guppy looks. Is my tank too small. I've heard a larger tank is easier to cycle. Do I need to buy a larger tank and start over??

Thanks everyone. Your input has really helped me. At least some of the fish are doing better. How long do you think it will take to get the readings down to where they should be?

 

[Louiseness]

The next change you do, literally only leave a couple of inches of water in the tank, just enough so the fish are still upright and no more. If your reading really is correct that should take out most of the old water and most of the remaining ammonia with it.

8ppm is SUPER high, and I'm worried that if it looks like it's staying the same that's just because 8ppm is the highest your test can read and it's actually higher Don't know how likely that is to be the case, though.

 

[Miles_hot]

+1 for more water changes. Test your tap water and keep doing 80% change, fill, run for 20 mins, change until your tank stats match that of your tank. You might have to spend the whole evening at it but you will get there.

I agree that you're probably getting 8 as that's as much as the test goes to. Of course you can speed up the testing process by only looking at the Ammonia - you know that you don't have a Nitrite issue and any Nitrate will be flushed away by the water changes.

Miles