Lfs Denied Refund On Garentee!

[theshadowinc]

Well to tell you the truth My wife came home from the the lfs emptied handed today and left with 2 dead bodies that where fish. 1 Pigmy Cory and 1 Tiger Cory! The both had a fungal disease so I qaurinteed them to see if I could actually save them and well they didn't make it through the night! So Great! I tested the water in the main tank they came from, also keep in mind I baught 8 of these guys.
Resaults
0ppm ammo
0ppm nitrite
don't have nitrate kit

Well its a planted tank I do EI dosing so meh can't be more than 30ppm of nitrate I know its bad I am gussing. Wife said there resaults where

0pp ammo
0pp nitrite
100ppm nitrate

When I heard this I freaked I have juv discus in my tank as well okay so I went out got a really good reliable test kit and not the api kind for doing nitrate. Of course I was worried so I tested the water in the tank and #### I got a reading of 20ppm and I know from seeing that the discuss are doing okay and a water change was already done the day before so now, I have to apperently lower this to 0ppm in a planted tank and thats impossible, the person stated to the wife you have to have 0ppm of nitrate, she said she even said well we have discuss in the tank and they are doing well, same with the others we baught from you. These fish that died had fungas, internal parisite!

Okay so now I told the wife sorry but I have to go and vent I am going out for a walk cause this person at the fish store is waisting my gas driving to the palce and back home again. I was freakin pissed, came home and thaught I would post this I have to have 0ppm by wendsday in the tank of nitrate I think we all know its impossible. The lowest i have ever seen was 5ppm in my entire life.

So readings as of now are
0ppm ammo
0ppm nitrite
20ppm Nitrate

Now how the hell am i going to get it through this lfs head that leather dosages are above 50ppm ><. And that it is impossible to have 0ppm of nitrate especially in a discus tank that is planted! I should be saying its impossible period!

I guess the worse case will be I tell him to sit and rotate and tell him I won't be bothering ever coming back and he is going to lose money every month now cause I buy my frozen foods there for my discuss!
I was thinking I should print of some leassons on Fishless cycle etc for the person to get some knowledge on my dime out of it lol.

What do you all think? This totally pisses me off! I am thinking there test kit is faulty!

 

[OldMan47]

There is no fighting ignorance. The best you can hope for is to cause some learning to take place, but that would mean the store actually wants to honor their guarantee. There is no telling if they will ever do that or even want to.

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

It's not impossible to have zero PPMs of Nitrate in a Discus tank. I do. Then again, mine is not planted.


You first have to make sure the Nitrates in your tap water are low, sometimes tap water isn't 0.


When growing out Discus you need to have it below 15 anyways. 0-10 is best.




I know plants will use Nitrates as nutrients, but I am not sure how low you can get it. Try to do your daily water changes and make sure you are siphoning thoroughly. Again, this is only if you are raising small discus (below 5 inches) if they are adults I wouldn't worry as much.


Good luck with the LFS, might need to switch over to a different one by the sounds of it.

 

[Bignose]

I know plants will use Nitrates as nutrients, but I am not sure how low you can get it. Try to do your daily water changes and make sure you are siphoning thoroughly. Again, this is only if you are raising small discus (below 5 inches) if they are adults I wouldn't worry as much.

Shoot, most aquatic plants actually prefer to take up ammonia as their nitrogen source. They will take up nitrate, because nitrogen in the wrong form is better than no nitrogen at all, but they will actually convert it into ammonia to use it. If the plants in the tank are taking up all the ammonia produced by the fish, there won't be any ammonia to go through the cycling bacteria. No ammonia going through the cycling bacteria, there won't be any nitrate in the end.

This is pretty much the entire point of heavily planted tanks -- that you don't need to grow bacteria at all, the plants do the "cycling" as it were. See Diana Walstad's excellent book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium to read more about this strategy -- she'd used it on many different aquariums, and I am sure that the planted tank section here has many more examples. It can be really nice because in general plants are hardier than the bacteria so it is tougher to un-cycle a plant-filtered tank.

 

[theshadowinc]

It's not impossible to have zero PPMs of Nitrate in a Discus tank. I do. Then again, mine is not planted.


You first have to make sure the Nitrates in your tap water are low, sometimes tap water isn't 0.


When growing out Discus you need to have it below 15 anyways. 0-10 is best.




I know plants will use Nitrates as nutrients, but I am not sure how low you can get it. Try to do your daily water changes and make sure you are siphoning thoroughly. Again, this is only if you are raising small discus (below 5 inches) if they are adults I wouldn't worry as much.


Good luck with the LFS, might need to switch over to a different one by the sounds of it.

I baught them as juv. but really they are about 5" so i don't know what to say on them and ya planted tanks use nitrate and I can't remember but I do know in EI dosing we inject eaither nitrites or nitrates not sure but that would cause the water if clean to go up in testing maybe even give a faulty reading to what it actually is because we inject good ferts for plants ><. I think the ppm for nitrate max is 50 or 40 lower the better but in a planted tank I have always tested mine before at anywhere from 15-30. Maybe when one of my bare bottoms here cycles then I will have water that is that clean but even breeding fishes never seen anything lower than 15ppm, I consider a tank cycled after it says 0amm/0nitrite and 30 nitrates ><. But planted tank rules are different set it all up and dump the fish in no need to cycle basicaly cause the plants are a filter inthere own way ><. Done it once with no problems

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

But planted tank rules are different set it all up and dump the fish in no need to cycle basicaly cause the plants are a filter inthere own way ><. Done it once with no problems

Sorry, I couldn't really understand what you where trying to say throughout that paragraph EI dosing and stuff is way over my head.



Planted tanks are not a filter. If you left the tank with plants an debris for a month or so it may cycle, but you cannot dump fish into a newly set up planted tank, because they do not filter out ammonia or nitrites. They will absorb nitrates, but these are non toxic unless in high amounts.

 

[theshadowinc]

I know plants will use Nitrates as nutrients, but I am not sure how low you can get it. Try to do your daily water changes and make sure you are siphoning thoroughly. Again, this is only if you are raising small discus (below 5 inches) if they are adults I wouldn't worry as much.

Shoot, most aquatic plants actually prefer to take up ammonia as their nitrogen source. They will take up nitrate, because nitrogen in the wrong form is better than no nitrogen at all, but they will actually convert it into ammonia to use it. If the plants in the tank are taking up all the ammonia produced by the fish, there won't be any ammonia to go through the cycling bacteria. No ammonia going through the cycling bacteria, there won't be any nitrate in the end.

This is pretty much the entire point of heavily planted tanks -- that you don't need to grow bacteria at all, the plants do the "cycling" as it were. See Diana Walstad's excellent book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium to read more about this strategy -- she'd used it on many different aquariums, and I am sure that the planted tank section here has many more examples. It can be really nice because in general plants are hardier than the bacteria so it is tougher to un-cycle a plant-filtered tank.

So true and you get the beauty of looking at a wonderful fish tank full of live vegitation!

Thanks for the book woot I need to get me one of those now so I can read it hmm hoping its really interesting!

 

[theshadowinc]

But planted tank rules are different set it all up and dump the fish in no need to cycle basicaly cause the plants are a filter inthere own way ><. Done it once with no problems

Sorry, I couldn't really understand what you where trying to say throughout that paragraph EI dosing and stuff is way over my head.



Planted tanks are not a filter. If you left the tank with plants an debris for a month or so it may cycle, but you cannot dump fish into a newly set up planted tank, because they do not filter out ammonia or nitrites. They will absorb nitrates, but these are non toxic unless in high amounts.

Well when i changed my substrate and cleaned the entire tank out i just put the new substate in and dump the entire contents of the filter media water into the tank , then filled it up let it cycle for 1 hour and put fish, next day tested water and boom 0ppm ammo and nitrites! Planted tanks don't really have a cycle, i guess alot of science behind it i don't know but that trick i used on my tank when I changed the substrate it worked awsome person in my signature told me that it actually worked but i didn't dump the contents in the tank bottom i miss read what he said and sprinkled on each layer but still worked, like no cycle period at all!

For your question on that you would have to ask a planted tank expert why!

Edit
only issue i ran into is when I put the discuss in the tank and wife over fead them a huge ammo outbreak in the tank like 5ppm 0nitrites didn't have nitrate test kit at the time just qaurtined the discuss in a different tank over night and was all fine I don't think discuss are as sensitive as many say they are or i am lucky with the ones i have but I also have a local breeder that helps me when needed
since then the wife learned how to not over feed the discuss! 4 times a day and lots of food I could see it all on the bottom the uneaten stuff is why i went with corys for the bottom to clean that up Basically its just a show tank, I have more in plants and substrate money than I do in the fish actually

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

Planted tanks don't really have a cycle, i guess alot of science behind it i don't know

Still not true.

Well when i changed my substrate and cleaned the entire tank out i just put the new substate in and dump the entire contents of the filter media water into the tank

This would be why your tank cycled automatically. You transferred bacteria.

 

[theshadowinc]

Planted tanks don't really have a cycle, i guess alot of science behind it i don't know

Still not true.

Na I had a tank before and never cycled it and all the fish lived, I just put the fish in right away is there an explaination to it then

Planted tanks don't cycle the same way at all as a fish only tank!
The importants or difference is huge between the 2 is why when someone says planted you should look at it differntly cause some rules do not apply. Fish only well these rules definitly apply!

Edit
Comment above, depends on dosage to cause EI dosing puts more nitrites or nitrates i cant remember what one but know it is good that you are putting in the tank and not bad, I think it effects the readings of some test kits out on the market

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

Planted tanks don't really have a cycle, i guess alot of science behind it i don't know

Still not true.

Na I had a tank before and never cycled it and all the fish lived, I just put the fish in right away is there an explaination to it then

Planted tanks don't cycle the same way at all as a fish only tank!
The importants or difference is huge between the 2 is why when someone says planted you should look at it differntly cause some rules do not apply. Fish only well these rules definitly apply!

Edit
Comment above, depends on dosage to cause EI dosing puts more nitrites or nitrates i cant remember what one but know it is good that you are putting in the tank and not bad, I think it effects the readings of some test kits out on the market

The tank probably cycled but you where lucky to have no deaths, unless you transferred something to the tank (ornament, gravel, filter, ect.)

As for a planted tank vs. a regular tank cycling differently I have never heard of this. Guess I will have to do some research!

 

[theshadowinc]

hmmmmmm. good topic so far

 

[Bignose]

Planted tanks are not a filter. If you left the tank with plants an debris for a month or so it may cycle, but you cannot dump fish into a newly set up planted tank, because they do not filter out ammonia or nitrites. They will absorb nitrates, but these are non toxic unless in high amounts.

DiscusLova,

Science disagrees with you. Please find a copy of Diana Walstad's book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium where studies are cited that prove that the vast majority of aquatic plants prefer to take up ammonia as their nitrogen source. There are a few that prefer nitrite and a few that prefer nitrate, but most take up ammonia. Please look up the citations and show where the science is wrong before you dismiss these statements out of hand. Because the experiments that have been reported in the scientific literature strongly disagree with you.

Furthermore, you better explain how Diana does it. She puts down soil as her substrate, she puts in many, many plants. Gives the tank about 24 to 48 hours so that any soil particles that got stirred up settle down, then put in all the fish at once. Downright overstocked by many standards. No filter. And yet, never an ammonia or nitrite or nitrate reading. It sure seems like strong evidence that the plants are taking up the ammonia.

edited to add:

Look, there are several other articles in the scientific literature to back this up:

This one shows that duckweed takes up ammonia as its preferred nitrogen source

Nutrient removal from shrimp farm effluent by aquatic plants
Author(s): Ruenglertpanyakul W, Attasat S, Wanichpongpan P
Source: WATER SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY Volume: 50 Issue: 6 Pages: 321-330 Published: 2004
Abstract: Duckweed was used to treat effluent from a shrimp farm in a batch wise and recirculation system. The result showed that duckweed could efficiently remove nutrients in the effluent, especially ammonia, which seemed to be the preferred nitrogen source of the plant. Red tilapia was used in the recirculation system and showed high potential in removal of uneaten shrimp feed.

This one talks about nitrate is transformed into ammonia because ammonia is "biologically available" meaning that the plant takes up and used the ammonia but not the nitrate

Have we overemphasized the role of denitrification in aquatic ecosystems? A review of nitrate removal pathways
more options
Author(s): Burgin AJ (Burgin, Amy J.), Hamilton SK (Hamilton, Stephen K.)
Source: FRONTIERS IN ECOLOGY AND THE ENVIRONMENT Volume: 5 Issue: 2 Pages: 89-96 Published: MAR 2007
Abstract: The removal of nitrogen (N) in aquatic ecosystems is of great interest because excessive nitrate in groundwater and surface water is a growing problem. High nitrate loading degrades water quality and is linked to eutrophication and harmful algal blooms, especially in coastal marine waters. Past research on nitrate removal processes has emphasized plant or microbial uptake (assimilation) or respiratory denitrification by bacteria. The increasing application of stable isotopes and other tracer techniques to the study of nitrate removal has yielded a growing body of evidence for alternative, microbially mediated processes of nitrate transformation. These include dissimilatory (the reduction of nitrogen into other inorganic compounds, coupled to energy producing processes) reduction of nitrate to ammonium (DNRA), chemoautotrophic denitrification via sulfur or iron oxidation, and anaerobic ammonium oxidation (anammox), as well as abiotic nitrate removal processes. Here, we review evidence for the importance of alternative nitrate removal pathways in aquatic ecosystems and discuss how the possible prevalence of these pathways may alter views of N cycling and its controls. These alternative pathways are of particular importance for the management of excess N in the environment, especially in cases where nitrate is transformed to ammonium, a biologically available and less mobile N form, rather than to dinitrogen gas.

This one shows that ammonium is in "strong demand" by the plant life in this particular body of water

A stable isotope tracer study of nitrogen uptake and transformation in an old-growth forest stream
Author(s): Ashkenas LR, Johnson SL, Gregory SV, Tank JL, Wollheim WM
Source: ECOLOGY Volume: 85 Issue: 6 Pages: 1725-1739 Published: JUN 2004
Abstract: The understanding of nitrogen dynamics in streams of temperate forest biomes historically has been constrained by a combination of anthropogenic disturbances and technical limitations. We report here on a study in an undisturbed stream in Oregon, USA, using a stable isotopic tracer to quantify uptake, transformation, and retention of nitrogen. We added (NH4Cl)-N-15 for six weeks to Mack Creek, a third-order stream in a 500-year-old-growth coniferous forest and monitored N-15 in dissolved, aquatic, and terrestrial riparian food web components. Data collected before, during, and for four weeks after the tracer addition allowed us to derive uptake rates of inorganic N and to trace its fates. Short uptake lengths (35-55 m) and residence times (8-12 min) of ammonium indicated strong demand. Despite nitrate concentrations of 55-68 mug/L, nitrification rates were also high, with 40-50% of the (NH4+)-N-15 converted to nitrate over the 220-m study reach. Aquatic bryophytes and biofilm on large wood ("epixylon") showed the highest biomass-adjusted uptake rates. All aquatic consumers sampled, both vertebrate and invertebrate, showed incorporation of tracer 15 N by the end of the experiment; small invertebrate grazers were more strongly labeled than their food sources. Increased 15 N label in 15 of the 17 riparian plant species sampled suggested transfer of aquatic N to the terrestrial ecosystem. At the end of the release, 81% of the added tracer was accounted for, with 49% exported (primarily as (NO3-)-N-15) and 32% retained within the stream and riparian biota (primarily by bryophytes, epixylon, and fine benthic organic material). Our results suggest that, in streams within undisturbed primary forests, uptake and retention of nitrogen may be highly efficient and that there may be strong connections between terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems.

If you want to keep repeating your information, let's see some citations that back it up. Because scientists keep publishing that ammonia is preferred by many different species -- how do these professionals keep getting it wrong time and time again?

Edited again to add:

Look, here's even a copy of what Diana wrote for her book:
<a href="http/www.bilyap.com.tr/magazin/mag3/concept1S3.php" target="_blank">http/www.bilyap.com.tr/magazin/mag3/concept1S3.php</a>

She has more good citations to scientific papers in her bibliography that you need to look at too if you remain unconvinced.

She shows again that aquatic plants prefer ammonia as their nitrogen source most often. Sure, there are some that like the nitrite and the nitrate, but most prefer ammonia. Unless you have some proof that refutes all the evidence posted here, you need to understand that the information you have is incorrect. More recent experiments have shown that ammonia is preferred.

To conclude, in Diana's own words: "After I completed my experiments and realized how well plants and soil bacteria removed ammonia and nitrites from the water, I dispensed with filters altogether. A year ago I replaced my canister filters with inexpensive powerheads to just circulate the water. The aquariums have done fine."

 

[Mikaila31]

IMO EI dosing messes up your test kits. I had 40ppms of nitrates. I switched to EI and now I have 80ppm! The tank how ever looks fantastic and so do the fish. I think the tests are wrong, cuz my rummy nosed tetras would not look the way they did if there was really 80ppm of nitrate in the water.

When ever I take fish back I take tap water for them to test. I know my tanks have better water than my tap, but water tests won't reflect that do to the EI ferts IMO.

 

[DiscusKeeper403]

Thanks for all the information Bignose. Like I said, I don't know a whole lot about planted tanks but I am glad I learned that. I had always read that plants preferred to use nitrates as their only found source. I had no idea different plants used different stages of the nitrogen cycle as a food source. Great information Where these findings relatively new, because I have never heard of them before...


On another note, I have heard about a self sustaining tank before which seems similar to Diana's experiments. Speaking of which, I actually sold a few fish to a teacher who was doing this experiment today.