PH, GH, KH level question

[DayTripper9 2]

I am having a conversation with my LFS that I disagree with. So, I have a blackwater setup. I use RO water that I lightly remineralize. My range preference would be PH 5-6.5. Its currently at 6.1
GH at 1-4 dGH. I dont know the conversion to PPM. but mine is about 70. KH is at 19. I want that at 0-3 dKH. My LFS says I am very low on all three. She wants it at 6.8 with GH and KH at bare minimum 100. I am 0 on phos, 0 on ammo, 0 on nitrites, and about 5 on nitrates. They have an aqua spin test meter that tests for all, g hardness, ph, phos, ammo, nitrite and nitrate which is very accurate. That tester is the reason I take water in there to have them test. Every time I do I get lectured on low KH and GH. Tell me I am wrong about the levels I am expecting, and why?

 

[gwand58 175]

For my black water tanks I do not mineralize the RO water. My TDS hovers around 50 ppm with a GH and KH around one degree. The pH is 6.0.

 

[DayTripper9 2]

For my black water tanks I do not mineralize the RO water. My TDS hovers around 50 ppm with a GH and KH around one degree. The pH is 6.0.

My TDS in RO water is 0. There is some GH and 0 KH. I just use about 1/8th tsp of Brightwell Aquatics Remineraliz P, but I am thinking about cutting that just a bit further. My TDS at the moment is about 75. I have a few java ferns and Anubias in the tank along with about 7 Cardinal tetras. I will be adding a couple Otos in a few weeks. My problem is with the owner of the LFS. It's also the only one around my town besides going into Petco or Petsmart which I try to stay away from.

​

 

[Uberhoust7 1]

I don't have a black water tank but my water from the tap is at GH 0-2 and a KH of 0. I don't treat the water except for adding the de-chlorinator, the fish seem to do well. pH tends to hover between 6-7.

 

[TwoTankAmin50]

the conversion factor for dg to ppm is about 17.8. That is a pretty wide pH range you for which you are looking. You also did not offer any information regarding your tap parameters. a GH of 4 dg would work out to about 3.93 ppm.

I ran a blackwater tank for Altum angels for almost a decade before I sold the angels and took down the tank. My target ranger was 6.0 for pH and TDS was to top out at at about 60 ppm. However, I ran an RO.DI unit which goves even purer water than RO alone. I did not remineralize at all I mixed the RO/DI with my tap water. My tap was abiut 7.0 pH and the pH was somewhat dependent on rain fall levels. That is because we have out own well. Under normal rainfall conditions the water was pH 7.0 and the TDS were about 83 ppm.

However, I have seen it as low aw 53 ppm during extended periods of heavier than normal rainfall and a high pushing towards 120 ppm during periods of drought. Thus mattered as to how I needed to mix the changing water. To stain the water and effect the parameters I used a combination of Rooibos tea (brewed) and Catappa leaves in the tank, alder cones and occasionally peat in a bag in the filter and when I need to lower pH I had muriatic acid.

To manage the tank I had a 3 way continuous monitor which measured pH, conductivity or TDS and temperature in C of F. This was a 55 gal. tank and I would mix up my new water in a 20 gal. Rubbermaid garbage can next to the tank, By knowing the numbers for the tank I was able to batch the changing water to meet the need to get the tank back close to the target range. This was because the pH and TDS tended to drift up between water changes. I would moved the probes from the tank to the can to get the changing water at the parameters needed.

Finally, because I am not perfect and would occasionally get the pH too low. I had baking soda handy. A small amount is all it took to raise the pH. However, when I would add either acid or baking soda, it was un very small amounts as things change pretty easily in this sort of situation. Anything at all which I added to the changing water would effect the TDS as well as the pH.

I had wanted Altums for a number of years before I was willing to start messing around with parameters. I needed to use the digital monitor to measure things since one cannot use colormetric tests on stained water. Sp between the RO/DI unit and the digital monitor I spent almost $350. There is no way I could have done what I did without both items. You have an RO unit but trying to rely on store testing is not how I would do things.

What governs oH levels in tanks is pretty much the KH level. it is important to understand that Gh is referred to as beneral hardness whick JH is referred to as temporary hardness. The reason is that KH can easily be used up.

Buffering Capacity (KH, Alkalinity)​

Buffering capacity refers to water's ability to keep the pHstable as acids or bases are added. pH and buffering capacity are intertwined with one another; although one might think that adding equal volumes of an acid and neutral water would result in a pH halfway in between, this rarely happens in practice. If the water has sufficient buffering capacity, the buffering capacity can absorb and neutralize the added acid without significantly changing the pH.Conceptually, a buffer acts somewhat like a large sponge. As more acid is added, the ``sponge'' absorbs the acid without changing the pH much. The ``sponge's'' capacity is limited however; once the buffering capacity is used up, the pH changes more rapidly as acids are added.
Buffering has both positive and negative consequences. On the plus side, the nitrogen cycle produces nitric acid (nitrate). Without buffering, your tank's pH would drop over time (a bad thing). With sufficient buffering, the pH stays stable (a good thing). On the negative side, hard tap water often almost always has a large buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is too high for your fish, the buffering capacity makes it difficult to lower the pH to a more appropriate value. Naive attempts to change the pH of water usually fail because buffering effects are ignored.

In freshwater aquariums, most of water's buffering capacity is due to carbonates and bicarbonates. Thus, the terms ``carbonate hardness''(KH), ``alkalinity'' and ``buffering capacity'' are used interchangeably.Although technically not the same things, they are equivalent in practice in the context of fishkeeping. Note: the term ``alkalinity''should not be confused with the term ``alkaline''. Alkalinity refers to buffering, while alkaline refers to a solution that is a base (i.e., pH> 7).

from https://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html#reference

And RO unit removes the things that contribute to KH which is why we use it to help lower pH as well as TDS (conductiivity). I not only used my RO/DI water for the Altums but I also worked with a few of the plecos from Brazil. There they have dry and rainy seasons which change the water parameters. The change over of the wdry and wet seasons often acrts as a trigger to get the fish spawning. The pH doesn't change as much as the TDS and temperature.

Ut is somewhere between very difficult and impossible to changes one's parameters witout the proper measurment tools. With the continuopus monitor I used I could see the what was going on in in the tank every time I got near it. I got my unit a long time ago, Today the same unit is capable of being lnked to a phone app. I actua;lt used a moinitor nade by a company in New Zealand but they sell in the states.

Here us the unit they make today on Amazon., the Company is Blue lab. You have two options, one uses probes you can move abound and the pricier option is for inline monitoring. I used the an earlier model which di not do the Wi Fi and i used the pmne woth the probles. i also spent a lot less than they sell for today. Both thime and the app have icreased the price substantially.

I tried using hand held pH testers but the probe need to be kept moist and that means using a special solution for this and making sure the probe is stored properly. I did not like this system and found it unreliable, Si I bit the bullet and got the Guardian. I still have it on a shelf as once O let the Altums go to a new home a few years ago I did not need to use it. I also sold my second RO/DI unit. My first one was a 3-satge which hadCarbon->Ro->DI. I replaced the carbon and Ro modules once and then got a new unit which was 5 stage and added a sediment filter before the carbon. My unit was a portable model which came with the intake having a conection cpmpatible with a garden hose type connection. I also have a utility sink with a faucet equiped with the ability to accept garden hose connections.

I used to sell in the vendor room at a few weekend events. I learned to bring the EO/Di unit with me and had all of the faucet adapters Pytin sells. This let me make RO/DI water in my hotel bromm';s bathroom. I would mix the hotel's water with my RO/DI unit. I firest used the Mikro Omega and then the Delta Units here https://store.afwfilters.com/portable-ro-systems/

If you can proviffe me with your tap parameters I should be able to offer you some more specific advice about working with your water. But, to do so effectively really does mean you need to be able to measure your key parameters yourself rather than taking water to the store.

Btw I never had to meaure more than I have mentioned above. Even when I did my hogh tech planted tank with pressurized CO2, I only used the basic API tests for pH, KH, GH and Nitrate. I had to add potassium nitrate to the tank for the plants beyond the noremal ferts I needed for them.

 

[DayTripper9 2]

the conversion factor for dg to ppm is about 17.8. That is a pretty wide pH range you for which you are looking. You also did not offer any information regarding your tap parameters. a GH of 4 dg would work out to about 3.93 ppm.

I ran a blackwater tank for Altum angels for almost a decade before I sold the angels and took down the tank. My target ranger was 6.0 for pH and TDS was to top out at at about 60 ppm. However, I ran an RO.DI unit which goves even purer water than RO alone. I did not remineralize at all I mixed the RO/DI with my tap water. My tap was abiut 7.0 pH and the pH was somewhat dependent on rain fall levels. That is because we have out own well. Under normal rainfall conditions the water was pH 7.0 and the TDS were about 83 ppm.

However, I have seen it as low aw 53 ppm during extended periods of heavier than normal rainfall and a high pushing towards 120 ppm during periods of drought. Thus mattered as to how I needed to mix the changing water. To stain the water and effect the parameters I used a combination of Rooibos tea (brewed) and Catappa leaves in the tank, alder cones and occasionally peat in a bag in the filter and when I need to lower pH I had muriatic acid.

To manage the tank I had a 3 way continuous monitor which measured pH, conductivity or TDS and temperature in C of F. This was a 55 gal. tank and I would mix up my new water in a 20 gal. Rubbermaid garbage can next to the tank, By knowing the numbers for the tank I was able to batch the changing water to meet the need to get the tank back close to the target range. This was because the pH and TDS tended to drift up between water changes. I would moved the probes from the tank to the can to get the changing water at the parameters needed.

Finally, because I am not perfect and would occasionally get the pH too low. I had baking soda handy. A small amount is all it took to raise the pH. However, when I would add either acid or baking soda, it was un very small amounts as things change pretty easily in this sort of situation. Anything at all which I added to the changing water would effect the TDS as well as the pH.

I had wanted Altums for a number of years before I was willing to start messing around with parameters. I needed to use the digital monitor to measure things since one cannot use colormetric tests on stained water. Sp between the RO/DI unit and the digital monitor I spent almost $350. There is no way I could have done what I did without both items. You have an RO unit but trying to rely on store testing is not how I would do things.

What governs oH levels in tanks is pretty much the KH level. it is important to understand that Gh is referred to as beneral hardness whick JH is referred to as temporary hardness. The reason is that KH can easily be used up.


from https://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html#reference

And RO unit removes the things that contribute to KH which is why we use it to help lower pH as well as TDS (conductiivity). I not only used my RO/DI water for the Altums but I also worked with a few of the plecos from Brazil. There they have dry and rainy seasons which change the water parameters. The change over of the wdry and wet seasons often acrts as a trigger to get the fish spawning. The pH doesn't change as much as the TDS and temperature.

Ut is somewhere between very difficult and impossible to changes one's parameters witout the proper measurment tools. With the continuopus monitor I used I could see the what was going on in in the tank every time I got near it. I got my unit a long time ago, Today the same unit is capable of being lnked to a phone app. I actua;lt used a moinitor nade by a company in New Zealand but they sell in the states.

Here us the unit they make today on Amazon., the Company is Blue lab. You have two options, one uses probes you can move abound and the pricier option is for inline monitoring. I used the an earlier model which di not do the Wi Fi and i used the pmne woth the probles. i also spent a lot less than they sell for today. Both thime and the app have icreased the price substantially.

I tried using hand held pH testers but the probe need to be kept moist and that means using a special solution for this and making sure the probe is stored properly. I did not like this system and found it unreliable, Si I bit the bullet and got the Guardian. I still have it on a shelf as once O let the Altums go to a new home a few years ago I did not need to use it. I also sold my second RO/DI unit. My first one was a 3-satge which hadCarbon->Ro->DI. I replaced the carbon and Ro modules once and then got a new unit which was 5 stage and added a sediment filter before the carbon. My unit was a portable model which came with the intake having a conection cpmpatible with a garden hose type connection. I also have a utility sink with a faucet equiped with the ability to accept garden hose connections.

I used to sell in the vendor room at a few weekend events. I learned to bring the EO/Di unit with me and had all of the faucet adapters Pytin sells. This let me make RO/DI water in my hotel bromm';s bathroom. I would mix the hotel's water with my RO/DI unit. I firest used the Mikro Omega and then the Delta Units here https://store.afwfilters.com/portable-ro-systems/

If you can proviffe me with your tap parameters I should be able to offer you some more specific advice about working with your water. But, to do so effectively really does mean you need to be able to measure your key parameters yourself rather than taking water to the store.

Btw I never had to meaure more than I have mentioned above. Even when I did my hogh tech planted tank with pressurized CO2, I only used the basic API tests for pH, KH, GH and Nitrate. I had to add potassium nitrate to the tank for the plants beyond the noremal ferts I needed for them.

Ill see if I can get some numbers from tap water. I used RO since the last time I did a TDS test it was around 125. PH was around 7. Don't know the gh or th. All I have to test at the moment is a digital ph meter, which I question, and the api drops. Those are hard to read at times. API KH and GH testing drops are about 2 drops for KH and 3 drops for GH tank water. I'll test my tap water today with those drops, but I have been told, even with my salt water setups, not to use it for anything aquarium.

 

[seangee30 10]

I don't remineralise my RO for cardinals. pH varies depending on plants, wood, feeding etc. At 1 stage I had 3 tanks using RO and the pH in these was between 5 and 6.5, reltaively consistent within each tank

 

[DayTripper9 2]

Ill see if I can get some numbers from tap water. I used RO since the last time I did a TDS test it was around 125. PH was around 7. Don't know the gh or th. All I have to test at the moment is a digital ph meter, which I question, and the api drops. Those are hard to read at times. API KH and GH testing drops are about 2 drops for KH and 3 drops for GH tank water. I'll test my tap water today with those drops, but I have been told, even with my salt water setups, not to use it for anything aquarium.

the conversion factor for dg to ppm is about 17.8. That is a pretty wide pH range you for which you are looking. You also did not offer any information regarding your tap parameters. a GH of 4 dg would work out to about 3.93 ppm.

I ran a blackwater tank for Altum angels for almost a decade before I sold the angels and took down the tank. My target ranger was 6.0 for pH and TDS was to top out at at about 60 ppm. However, I ran an RO.DI unit which goves even purer water than RO alone. I did not remineralize at all I mixed the RO/DI with my tap water. My tap was abiut 7.0 pH and the pH was somewhat dependent on rain fall levels. That is because we have out own well. Under normal rainfall conditions the water was pH 7.0 and the TDS were about 83 ppm.

However, I have seen it as low aw 53 ppm during extended periods of heavier than normal rainfall and a high pushing towards 120 ppm during periods of drought. Thus mattered as to how I needed to mix the changing water. To stain the water and effect the parameters I used a combination of Rooibos tea (brewed) and Catappa leaves in the tank, alder cones and occasionally peat in a bag in the filter and when I need to lower pH I had muriatic acid.

To manage the tank I had a 3 way continuous monitor which measured pH, conductivity or TDS and temperature in C of F. This was a 55 gal. tank and I would mix up my new water in a 20 gal. Rubbermaid garbage can next to the tank, By knowing the numbers for the tank I was able to batch the changing water to meet the need to get the tank back close to the target range. This was because the pH and TDS tended to drift up between water changes. I would moved the probes from the tank to the can to get the changing water at the parameters needed.

Finally, because I am not perfect and would occasionally get the pH too low. I had baking soda handy. A small amount is all it took to raise the pH. However, when I would add either acid or baking soda, it was un very small amounts as things change pretty easily in this sort of situation. Anything at all which I added to the changing water would effect the TDS as well as the pH.

I had wanted Altums for a number of years before I was willing to start messing around with parameters. I needed to use the digital monitor to measure things since one cannot use colormetric tests on stained water. Sp between the RO/DI unit and the digital monitor I spent almost $350. There is no way I could have done what I did without both items. You have an RO unit but trying to rely on store testing is not how I would do things.

What governs oH levels in tanks is pretty much the KH level. it is important to understand that Gh is referred to as beneral hardness whick JH is referred to as temporary hardness. The reason is that KH can easily be used up.


from https://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html#reference

And RO unit removes the things that contribute to KH which is why we use it to help lower pH as well as TDS (conductiivity). I not only used my RO/DI water for the Altums but I also worked with a few of the plecos from Brazil. There they have dry and rainy seasons which change the water parameters. The change over of the wdry and wet seasons often acrts as a trigger to get the fish spawning. The pH doesn't change as much as the TDS and temperature.

Ut is somewhere between very difficult and impossible to changes one's parameters witout the proper measurment tools. With the continuopus monitor I used I could see the what was going on in in the tank every time I got near it. I got my unit a long time ago, Today the same unit is capable of being lnked to a phone app. I actua;lt used a moinitor nade by a company in New Zealand but they sell in the states.

Here us the unit they make today on Amazon., the Company is Blue lab. You have two options, one uses probes you can move abound and the pricier option is for inline monitoring. I used the an earlier model which di not do the Wi Fi and i used the pmne woth the probles. i also spent a lot less than they sell for today. Both thime and the app have icreased the price substantially.

I tried using hand held pH testers but the probe need to be kept moist and that means using a special solution for this and making sure the probe is stored properly. I did not like this system and found it unreliable, Si I bit the bullet and got the Guardian. I still have it on a shelf as once O let the Altums go to a new home a few years ago I did not need to use it. I also sold my second RO/DI unit. My first one was a 3-satge which hadCarbon->Ro->DI. I replaced the carbon and Ro modules once and then got a new unit which was 5 stage and added a sediment filter before the carbon. My unit was a portable model which came with the intake having a conection cpmpatible with a garden hose type connection. I also have a utility sink with a faucet equiped with the ability to accept garden hose connections.

I used to sell in the vendor room at a few weekend events. I learned to bring the EO/Di unit with me and had all of the faucet adapters Pytin sells. This let me make RO/DI water in my hotel bromm';s bathroom. I would mix the hotel's water with my RO/DI unit. I firest used the Mikro Omega and then the Delta Units here https://store.afwfilters.com/portable-ro-systems/

If you can proviffe me with your tap parameters I should be able to offer you some more specific advice about working with your water. But, to do so effectively really does mean you need to be able to measure your key parameters yourself rather than taking water to the store.

Btw I never had to meaure more than I have mentioned above. Even when I did my hogh tech planted tank with pressurized CO2, I only used the basic API tests for pH, KH, GH and Nitrate. I had to add potassium nitrate to the tank for the plants beyond the noremal ferts I needed for them.

So, I tested my tap water today. PH was 6.8. GH was 60, KH was 80. TDS was 26, EC was 52, tested with a VIVOSUN TDS / EC meter These results are based on those API drops as close as I can tell with the color chart. Thats a lot different than last time I tested it.
I just ordered a new RO/DI unit based on your recommendation, a Mikro Delta 4 stage Portable. Should be here in a few days.

 

[TwoTankAmin50]

That unit makes close to pure water. The DI part takes care of most of what an RO mebrane can't.

From your numbers you have soft tap water. I am assuming your GH and KH numbers are ppm. The TDS looked low to me and the EC says it is soft water for sure. I fed 52 microsiemens to Google and the the AI came back and the TDS are on track. Your tap water is soft and slightly acidic. So why are you doing RO and remineralizing?

All you likely need to do is to mix your RO or RO/DI with your tap and you will find a sweet spot that puts you pretty near your desired target levels.

I would start with maybe 2/3 tap and 1/3 RO or RO/Di and see what you get. If you find a mix that works, it makes your life a lot simpler and cheaper to boot. Do not adjust anything besides dechloring your tap portion if it is municipal water. An RO/DI unit should remove chlorine and ammonia. The carbon unit should be helpful in this. One should not feed water which has been dechlorinated through an RO or RO/DI unit. It will gum things up.

Because I have a private well there is neither chlorine nor chloramine in my tap and I never use dechlor unless away from home. You can do test mixes to see what you get before you start to use it in a tank. Also, what are you using to stain the water? I would also suggest you consider using Rooibos "tea" to stain the water. It will net effect the pH but will do the staining nicely and make the water more beneficial for the fish. I used to sell it at events this was the hand out I offered.

Rooibos Tea

Is beneficial for fish, 100% caffeine and tannin free and you can drink it too.

Will stain water like peat, almond leaves or alder cones and can be used with them.

Will not soften water or lower pH. It is more likely to bump pH up by 0.1.

Can be brewed like tea and poured into the water or can be put into a bag in one’s filter. Once brewed it can be stored refrigerated for about a week.

When brewing, allow it to boil for a bit after the tea is added to the hot water.

It is hard to overdose. Start with 1 tablespoon per 10 gal. (38 L) of water and adjust from there to find the color you like.

Buying Rooibos helps to support the local farmers in South Africa.

Rooibos tea (meaning red bush in Afrikaans and pronounced roy + boss) has nothing to do with traditional tea, which comes from the Chinese plant Camellia sinensis in the family Rosaceae. Rooibos comes from the plant, Aspalathus linearis, a legume in the family Fabaceae- it is related to peas and beans. The bush is more like a broom than a bush. The top of the bush is cut off, dried and oxidized before packing in tea bags or sold as loose tea.

Wikipedia (at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooibos) states:

“Rooibos is becoming more popular in Western countries, particularly among health-conscious consumers, due to its high level of antioxidants such as aspalathin and nothofagin, its lack of caffeine, and its low tannin levels compared to fully oxidized black tea or unoxidized green tea leaves. Rooibos also contains a number of phenolic compounds, including flavanols, flavones, flavanones, and dihydrochalcones”.

In fish keeping we are interested in the plant phenolic compounds that act as antioxidants and antibacterials (it won’t harm filters). This is similar to the humic acids found in natural tea stained water. Oak leaves contain the plant phenolic quercetin (from the Latin name for oak trees, Quercus robur). Rooibos contains some quercetin plus the compound aspalathin, closely related to quercetin.

Research at the University of Stellenbosch indicates that rooibos has natural stress relieving properties. It is safe to use and is beneficial for both keepers and fish. The "organic" label is unnecessary as rooibos is grown naturally without insecticides and herbicides, they are just simply not needed and can actually harm the plant.