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three-fingers

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You don't need to give a frog live food for it to be 'stimulated'.
Give a frog the choice between a dead fish and a live fish and it will go for the dead fish.
Give the frog the right environment and it will be stimulated enough, risking your frog with live feeders is unnecessary.

The frog doesn't NEED live food. HOWEVER, live food GREATLY improves the quality of life of the frogs, and their growth.
I don't think it's fair for you to say that without proof, which would very difficult to provide anyway. You cant just say it improves the frogs quality of life, because that statement is entirely subjective. And feeding live food doesn't improve the frogs growth rate, that's an outlandish claim that no one person can make...unless it was shown in an experiment during a study on the growth rates of ACF's by scientists or something. Even if you observed an improved rate of growth, it could be down to many many more other factors.
Feeding live gives the frog something to do (chase the fish) It will learn that food is out there, it has to look for it, and your frog will SEARCH for the food, making your frog 1000X more active. Mine went from moving once an hour, to swimming 90% of the time. I'd say its quality of life improved, I don't think any animal is healthy sitting in one spot...
Once again, that's subjective. How active do you think these frogs are in the wild? They don't swim 90% of the time, no frog species I can think of does that. You may not think a animal is healthy sitting on the spot, but I don't think its healthy to be constantly swimming. From your description the frog could just be stressed by all the feeders in the tank.
Also, feeding live food improves its growing rate, mine grew slowly on pellets and was boring, on live fish she grew MUCH faster and was a healthier overall frog, she never has periods of where she is underweight or looking underfed (easy to underfeed with pellets).
You don't have to feed pellets there's lots of different foods they will eat. I fond it extremely hard to believe your an African clawed frog would starve itself in the right conditions, these guys are veracious eaters and will eat almost anything until they look like their about to pop. If your frog was looking underfed, it probably wasnt eating due to other reasons, or it just didn't like the food you were giving it. There are loads of food more suitable than feeder fish. With ACF's, feeder fish are best used as treats under some conditions, and even then feeder fish are still a risk unless you are breeding them yourself.
These frogs if fed strictly on pellets become boring, simply moving to grab the floating pellets once an awhile, and can EASIlY go underweight. I had mine go underweight OVERNIGHT.
I wonder what other ACF owners would like to say about this? There's so many different factors involved, you cant just say that frogs fed on pellets can easily go under weight. And as I said before, there's better things to feed than pellets or feeder fish.
To keep these frogs successfully and looking nice with only pellets, you have to feed them every 3-4 hours, yep 6-8 times a day, they go through their system faster while not helping their growth.
That once again depends on so many different things (health of the frog, which pellets, environment) a blanket statement like "you have to feed them every 3-4 hours" simply does not work. And I wouldn't recommend frog pellets as a staple diet anyway, there as loads of other food. Feeder fish on their own is NOT a staple diet either, and will have long term health affects on your frog.
Take note your frog is still sitting on the bottom all day. However, with a few feeder fish in the tank at all times, the frog when its hungry can have a larger meal on its own time, it gets to eat its fill, and you get to save time. Yay!
A few feeder fish in the tank may also stress out the frog, introduce parasites or disease and the frog may starve or over feed itself depending on the individual frog. Yay! :no:

edit: Forgot to add a link to this http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=148384. ACF's are opportunistic piscivores, though in their native range they often live in pools with no fish at all :good:.
 

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One important factor is being missed here, and that is the fact that a live feeder is only as good as the food the feeder gets. The way most predatory animals get their vegetable matter is from the stomach of the prey.

You have to gut load any live food before giving them to the predator or you are going to be giving them a poor diet, far poorer than pellet and flake type foods that are controlled to have certain nutritional values.

I must also echo the points of three fingers above that all of T1's "experience" is in keeping one single frog. Making such sweeping statements on the experience of keeping a single frog is not the wisest of things.
 

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These frogs dont need live food and feeding them feeders not bred by yourself is like playing russian roulette as all it takes is for one bad feeder to go into the tank and you risk losing the them.They dont need to have something to chase to somehow feel happy, they are not that smart.In fact they will go more into a frenzy if something like chopped prawns or mussel are added to the tank as they hunt mostly by smell.

To the OP, if the frog wont eat things like frozen bloodworm, chopped prawn/mussle or pellets(reptomin being the best as its high in calcium)then there may be something wrong with it.These frogs are not known for being picky eaters.
 

t1tanrush

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You don't need to give a frog live food for it to be 'stimulated'.
Give a frog the choice between a dead fish and a live fish and it will go for the dead fish.
Give the frog the right environment and it will be stimulated enough, risking your frog with live feeders is unnecessary.
You can only say it will go for the dead fish because it is easier to catch, but a healthy active frog will attempt to eat the live fish just as readily as any other food, it will just need to work at it more. I've fed my frog live feeders, and I've used live feeders my entire life, never once had a problem, I think a few pieces of bad luck have given them a bad rep.
The frog doesn't NEED live food. HOWEVER, live food GREATLY improves the quality of life of the frogs, and their growth.
I don't think it's fair for you to say that without proof, which would very difficult to provide anyway. You cant just say it improves the frogs quality of life, because that statement is entirely subjective. And feeding live food doesn't improve the frogs growth rate, that's an outlandish claim that no one person can make...unless it was shown in an experiment during a study on the growth rates of ACF's by scientists or something. Even if you observed an improved rate of growth, it could be down to many many more other factors.
lol, I provided knowledge from what I've read and witnessed, my frog was obviously (to anyone who had eyes) a much healthier and more active frog. It had a more natural environment which made it behave more normally. Also, it improve growth rate, the only thing I changed was the diet to include live fish. I would leave 20+ feeders and she would eat them when she wanted, she grew MUCH faster than before.
Feeding live gives the frog something to do (chase the fish) It will learn that food is out there, it has to look for it, and your frog will SEARCH for the food, making your frog 1000X more active. Mine went from moving once an hour, to swimming 90% of the time. I'd say its quality of life improved, I don't think any animal is healthy sitting in one spot...
Once again, that's subjective. How active do you think these frogs are in the wild? They don't swim 90% of the time, no frog species I can think of does that. You may not think a animal is healthy sitting on the spot, but I don't think its healthy to be constantly swimming. From your description the frog could just be stressed by all the feeders in the tank.
These frogs are active powerful hunters, who do not sit in one spot. Many people recommend 20 gallons for a single frog simply because they can be very active. ACF's are not all frog species either, they are very unique, and are fully aquatic, so that comparison sucked to be honest, no duh most frogs don't swim as much, they spend more time on land than an ACF does lol. My frog is not stressed by all the feeders in the tank, when she has had a meal she ignores the other fish completely. If she was stressed it would show.
Also, feeding live food improves its growing rate, mine grew slowly on pellets and was boring, on live fish she grew MUCH faster and was a healthier overall frog, she never has periods of where she is underweight or looking underfed (easy to underfeed with pellets).
You don't have to feed pellets there's lots of different foods they will eat. I fond it extremely hard to believe your an African clawed frog would starve itself in the right conditions, these guys are veracious eaters and will eat almost anything until they look like their about to pop. If your frog was looking underfed, it probably wasnt eating due to other reasons, or it just didn't like the food you were giving it. There are loads of food more suitable than feeder fish. With ACF's, feeder fish are best used as treats under some conditions, and even then feeder fish are still a risk unless you are breeding them yourself.
These frogs if fed strictly on pellets become boring, simply moving to grab the floating pellets once an awhile, and can EASIlY go underweight. I had mine go underweight OVERNIGHT.
I wonder what other ACF owners would like to say about this? There's so many different factors involved, you cant just say that frogs fed on pellets can easily go under weight. And as I said before, there's better things to feed than pellets or feeder fish.
I'd be very interested to know what other ACF keepers say, my frog was fed frequently on pellets and in large numbers, and she would go underweight very easily.
To keep these frogs successfully and looking nice with only pellets, you have to feed them every 3-4 hours, yep 6-8 times a day, they go through their system faster while not helping their growth.
That once again depends on so many different things (health of the frog, which pellets, environment) a blanket statement like "you have to feed them every 3-4 hours" simply does not work. And I wouldn't recommend frog pellets as a staple diet anyway, there as loads of other food. Feeder fish on their own is NOT a staple diet either, and will have long term health affects on your frog.
I never said feeders would be a staple, I said there are benefits to including them in the diet of the frog, and I am fully aware of the fact there are other foods. If you re-read my post, I said that if you fed ONLY pellets. I have emphasized that these frogs need a varied diet and require a lot of food multiple times.
Take note your frog is still sitting on the bottom all day. However, with a few feeder fish in the tank at all times, the frog when its hungry can have a larger meal on its own time, it gets to eat its fill, and you get to save time. Yay!
A few feeder fish in the tank may also stress out the frog, introduce parasites or disease and the frog may starve or over feed itself depending on the individual frog. Yay! :no:
The frog will not be stressed by having a food source available to it, yes over feeding itself is a possibility, but as they eat, they gain weight, which they become slower, they can't catch the fish near as easy. Parasites and diseases are always a possibility, but this isn't as common as one would think.
edit: Forgot to add a link to this http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=148384. ACF's are opportunistic piscivores, though in their native range they often live in pools with no fish at all :good:.
Nice smiley at the end, sure they can often live in pools, but this isn't always the case. In california they were introduced into a pond and they ate everything, its a natural food. So I'm not sure that saying that not using fish is good, as fish have their place in many fishes diet.

One important factor is being missed here, and that is the fact that a live feeder is only as good as the food the feeder gets. The way most predatory animals get their vegetable matter is from the stomach of the prey.
Very true!
You have to gut load any live food before giving them to the predator or you are going to be giving them a poor diet, far poorer than pellet and flake type foods that are controlled to have certain nutritional values.
Yes, all my feeders are fed well before being food, although, as long as its healthy you don't need to gut load. We aren't trying to feed them pellets, we want natural food. If I was after nutritional value I would simply feed pellets.
I must also echo the points of three fingers above that all of T1's "experience" is in keeping one single frog. Making such sweeping statements on the experience of keeping a single frog is not the wisest of things.
I stated what I observed to be extremely beneficial to my own frog, some people when they see the idea of live feeder fish being used decide to freak out and argue. I never once claimed it was the only way to go.

These frogs dont need live food and feeding them feeders not bred by yourself is like playing russian roulette as all it takes is for one bad feeder to go into the tank and you risk losing the them.They dont need to have something to chase to somehow feel happy, they are not that smart.In fact they will go more into a frenzy if something like chopped prawns or mussel are added to the tank as they hunt mostly by smell.
I disagree strongly, feeders aren't that bad, I have NEVER had a problem with feeders, a few bad times for a few people just managed to scare everyone off. Also, I used a crayfish today that I had that died, there wasn't a frenzy and it treated it as a pellet, not a challenge to eat, just ate it like any other non moving food item.
To the OP, if the frog wont eat things like frozen bloodworm, chopped prawn/mussle or pellets(reptomin being the best as its high in calcium)then there may be something wrong with it.These frogs are not known for being picky eaters.
I disagree, they don't find these foods prepared for them in their native ranges, they aren't used to eating such foods and it may take some time for them to understand it as food, mine took awhile to eat pellets, but she did eat some goldfish right off.
 

~T~

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1. Your not gonna get much support here saying theres nothing wrong with store bought feeders.

2. You say chopped prawn/mussel is not found in their natural environment yet you feed yours fathead minnows and goldfish?They are far more likely to come across shrimp and freshwater clams/mussels in their natural range.

GOLDFISH or MINNOWS (rosey reds, tuffys, etc) contain an enzyme called thamanise which blocks the frogs ability to absorb vitamin B. They also have a seraded spine which can damage the frogs internal organs.

From http://aquaticfrogs.tripod.com/id1.html

And FYI they do not always attack and eat fish.My girlfriends smaller one was in one of my tanks divided with some hybrid cichlid fry and 3 of the smallest ones squeezed under the divider and although im sure the frog tried to odd time to catch them he didnt manage.Yet when I dropped in some chopped earthworms or shrimp he scoured the tank until he had ate every last bit.

I dont think its a good idea to always have food in their tank as they tend to stuff themselves and amphibian metabolic rate is not that fast so overfeeding could cause intestinal blockages.Most websites reccomend no more than 3 large feeds a week.
 

t1tanrush

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1. Your not gonna get much support here saying theres nothing wrong with store bought feeders.
Because people are brainwashed off a few bad cases... I know I won't get support, and I don't need support to back my points.
2. You say chopped prawn/mussel is not found in their natural environment yet you feed yours fathead minnows and goldfish?They are far more likely to come across shrimp and freshwater clams/mussels in their natural range.

I'm not debating type of fish, I'm debating live fish over other food sources, they are more likely to eat live fish than a clam/mussel. The chances of a frog finding a mussle/clam to eat is slim.
GOLDFISH or MINNOWS (rosey reds, tuffys, etc) contain an enzyme called thamanise which blocks the frogs ability to absorb vitamin B. They also have a seraded spine which can damage the frogs internal organs.

From http://aquaticfrogs.tripod.com/id1.html
Again, I never said goldfish/minnows are the best thing in the world for them. And I've been told by multiple people that as long as the diet is supplimented then the thamanise affects are in a way nuetralized, the only time the enzyme causes problems is if used as a staple. Also, I've fed my frog over 200 fish by now, and never once had a problem with the spine, I don't feed fish that are obviously large enough to create a problem.
And FYI they do not always attack and eat fish.My girlfriends smaller one was in one of my tanks divided with some hybrid cichlid fry and 3 of the smallest ones squeezed under the divider and although im sure the frog tried to odd time to catch them he didnt manage.Yet when I dropped in some chopped earthworms or shrimp he scoured the tank until he had ate every last bit.
Congrats? Your frog couldn't catch them? Fry are quick. And yea, it sounds like the frog didn't get enough normally, which explains the scouring of the tank for food.
I dont think its a good idea to always have food in their tank as they tend to stuff themselves and amphibian metabolic rate is not that fast so overfeeding could cause intestinal blockages.Most websites reccomend no more than 3 large feeds a week.
I disagree, my frogs metabolic rate is incredible. She would eat 4-5 minnows a day without difficulties and has remained healthy.
Do remember, I am only pointing out what has worked for me, and trying to help others out.
 

three-fingers

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Nope, what your doing is posting advice to do what you think has worked for you.
Then when someone tries to explain why your wrong, you get all defensive and use that red text of yours. You come can accros as pretty ignorant sometimes too :unsure: .
You can only say it will go for the dead fish because it is easier to catch
Yep, they choose to eat food that is easier to catch.
but a healthy active frog will attempt to eat the live fish just as readily as any other food, it will just need to work at it more.
Not always true...
It had a more natural environment which made it behave more normally.
I forgot that in its native range the ACF is found in small bare bottom glass tanks with a couple of flower pots and a bunch of fish.
These frogs are active powerful hunters, who do not sit in one spot.
Really? Woah, where did you learn that? I'm sure they like to sit still in one spot for a while in the wild just as much as they do in captivity, but it depends entirely on the individual frog.
ACF's are not all frog species either, they are very unique, and are fully aquatic, so that comparison sucked to be honest, no duh most frogs don't swim as much, they spend more time on land than an ACF does lol.
Ah right, so because a frog is 'fully' aquatic that means it is very active and swims 90% of the time? Of coarse ACF's are not all frog species, did I ever say they were?


My frog is not stressed by all the feeders in the tank, when she has had a meal she ignores the other fish completely. If she was stressed it would show.
It would show, but that doesn't mean you would be able to notice it....
I've used live feeders my entire life, never once had a problem, I think a few pieces of bad luck have given them a bad rep.
And what makes you think that? You know lots of different places supply feeder fish, sounds like you've got a supply one or have just been lucky.

Congrats? Your frog couldn't catch them? Fry are quick. And yea, it sounds like the frog didn't get enough normally, which explains the scouring of the tank for food.
So fry are faster than minnows now?
 

t1tanrush

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Lol, all this is tbh is another " dont feed live fish " debate. I'm not wrong, you just don't like the fact I use live fish... All it boils down to. lol
 

three-fingers

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Nope, you can use live fish if you want, I don't mind about that.
It's your combination of ignorance and willingness to 'help' others that concerns me.
I am also concerned about your frog, but that's really your responsibility so do what you want, just don't advise others to do the same.
 

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Nope, you can use live fish if you want, I don't mind about that.
It's your combination of ignorance and willingness to 'help' others that concerns me.
I am also concerned about your frog, but that's really your responsibility so do what you want, just don't advise others to do the same.
I agree with 3 fingers, you are basically saying that since you got lucky that everyone should use disease ridden store bought feeders and that only a few people have ever lost fish because of them.This is blatantly not true.

And no my girlfriends frog was not starving, it had plenty to eat.Actually you contradicted yourself, if it was that hungry it would have made extra effort to catch the fry(I dont think it would have been all that difficult).
 
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Fate2006

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Okay, I've gotten him to eat live mealworms (well half drowned mealworms), the fish were a wee bit too big for him...


First off, I breed these fish my self so I know where they come from, Secondly it's a natural occurance and it's better to feed your fish/animals as they eat in the wild.... Third of all, before you begin to argue about something entirly off topic, in this case feeding live fish, why don't you answer the original bloody question and keep your opinion about feeding live fish to yourself...


weither you like it or not, there is dead fish in flakes, pellets and frozen food and they all once were alive, you feed your fish other fish no matter what you think so don't start saying "OMG FEEDING LIVE FISH IS SO CRUEL" well alot of people eat meat... Cows are killed for beef, does that mean we're cruel? We get eggs from chickens and take away the chance for a new baby chick, does that mean we're cruel? No it means we do what we need to do inorder to survive...
 

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Okay, I've gotten him to eat live mealworms (well half drowned mealworms), the fish were a wee bit too big for him...


First off, I breed these fish my self so I know where they come from, Secondly it's a natural occurance and it's better to feed your fish/animals as they eat in the wild.... Third of all, before you begin to argue about something entirly off topic, in this case feeding live fish, why don't you answer the original bloody question and keep your opinion about feeding live fish to yourself...


weither you like it or not, there is dead fish in flakes, pellets and frozen food and they all once were alive, you feed your fish other fish no matter what you think so don't start saying "OMG FEEDING LIVE FISH IS SO CRUEL" well alot of people eat meat... Cows are killed for beef, does that mean we're cruel? We get eggs from chickens and take away the chance for a new baby chick, does that mean we're cruel? No it means we do what we need to do inorder to survive...
1. Why dont YOU read back through the thread and see that your original question was answered(I as last did and im sure other posters did also).I also said if breeding the fish yourself then thats the only safe way to feed feeders.

2. No ones talking about the ethics here, not once did anyone say its cruel, we are talking about the saftey of feeding feeder fish.

3. I agree its good to feed fish/animals as they would eat in the wild but store bought feeders are not on the list of what they would find in the wild.
 

t1tanrush

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Nope, you can use live fish if you want, I don't mind about that.
It's your combination of ignorance and willingness to 'help' others that concerns me.
I am also concerned about your frog, but that's really your responsibility so do what you want, just don't advise others to do the same.
Your opinion is no more correct than mine. I have every right to give advice on what has worked for me. Your advise is not better than mine. I will continue to share what has worked for me, and just because you disagree, doesn't make me wrong. Who died and made you king?
 

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Nope, you can use live fish if you want, I don't mind about that.
It's your combination of ignorance and willingness to 'help' others that concerns me.
I am also concerned about your frog, but that's really your responsibility so do what you want, just don't advise others to do the same.
Your opinion is no more correct than mine. I have every right to give advice on what has worked for me. Your advise is not better than mine. I will continue to share what has worked for me, and just because you disagree, doesn't make me wrong. Who died and made you king?
No you are advising others to buy sickly store bought feeders, your advice really is wrong.
 
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