High Flow + High Co2 = Algae?! What?!

[Rorie]

Still got issues with algae in my tank! But it has changed from blue algae (BGA) to what must be BBA.

I have high flow - to the extent that my discus seem to hide a bit I have two 1200l/h external filters, and two 900l/h nano powerheads. My CO2 is lime green. So what else can i do?

In actual fact, i do still have some BGA - on my bogwood's javamoss....right in front of one of the power heads, so a location of highest flow!!

I have a third 900l/h power head on order, but i wonder if this will be too much for my discus?

I am currently dosing a purchased arrangement of ferts, but its away to run out so i'm going to try EI again. Is there something extra i can does with EI to reduce the algae?

I just added some new carpet plants, and they are AMAZING and green. But i know in a couple weeks they will loose all theri bright green colour and stunt growth like the rest of the carpet plants i have. It is extremely frustrating! On the other hand, all my other plants grow at one hell of a rate!!

 

[Rorie]

Just read something else online - in the planted resource centre the second algae reference talks a lot about giving the tank enough 02 and also surface disturbance. My water surface is quite still, but i thought adding oxygen had a counteracting effect on adding CO2?!

Do you think moving the surface of the tank more will help get rid of algae?

 

[Ps3Steveo]

Most planted tanks only want a ripple at best on the surface and I've never tried it to get rid of algae, I always done lots of water changes and tried my best to get the balance right, how are your plants looking? Whats your lighting? Tank size? How many Discus and other fish? How often are you changing water and how much?

 

[Rorie]

I do a 50% water change every week. 360L tank. two 54W T8 tubes on for six hours a day. A further two tubes come on for 3 hours a day as i did not feel the plants on the substrate were getting any light.

I have 50 cardinals, 4 discus around 5-6 inch, and 3 less than 3 inch.

I have a few carpet plants as nothing seems to grow - i'm experimenting. But they just dont seem to root! No growth. They dont die, they just loose all the bright colours, dont root and dont grow! I have background plants which always seem to reach the surface really quickly. My carpet plants struggle, and the algae is over my tall rocks as well as the glass, despite the flow aiming right at it!

 

[Ps3Steveo]

I'd start with doing more water changes, you tested for ammonia? Your very heavily stocked I'm putting the same stock in a 450litre and will be doing double the water changes cos I don't want algae. Your carpet plants may be uprooting due to substrate, if it's sand then lots of carpet plants will struggle to root as there's lots of flow.

 

[SuperColey1]

you have enough flow without the new powerhead although it won't hurt.

No point trying carpet plants until you are happy with the upright ones.

Co2 and O2 have no relationship. Introducing CO2 does not reduce O2 they are independent. having a ripple on the surface makes the overall surface area larger and therefore promotes gaseous exchange. that means yes you lose some CO2 and gain some O2 but nothing to do with each other. Just that we are adding more than the natural level of CO2 (equilibrium is between 3 and 8ppm) so of course the CO2 level will try and return to equilibrium, their natural level. Gaseous exchange helps the CO2 do this.

By the same merit O2 enters the water via gaseous exchange so the ripple speeds this up too.

Nothing to worry about when they 'surface disturbance' they mean a ripple. I would NEVER have a tank setup with a still water surface.

Most likely problems are the ferts and CO2 here IMO. The light is just pushing the problem quicker.

Get off the bottles and move onto EI, then move the DC to a different are of the tank every day and see what colours differences you get. Even better buy or make a few DCs and distribute them around the tank. No tank in the world has an equal level all around the tank. More like 150ppm or so at the diffuser or source and <10ppm at the furthest substrate area etc so you are looking for any deadspots where CO2 doesn't get to and then point a powerhead to it.

Andy

 

[Rorie]

Thanks for the replies and help

I actually have several DPs, and have, on a few occasions, dotted them around the tank. I seem to have pretty good circulation of CO2, including at the substrate.

If i go back to EI, should i set up bottles and does as per below? (taken from James' planted tank). Also looking on his website under plant deficiencies, my carpet plants seem to match the deficiencies shown for Phosphorus- dark leaver, stunted growth and no root growth. Should i therefore does some extra of this? If so, how much? If i notice a deficiency in a plant, do i just add some more of the corresponding component from James's planted tan plant deficiencies?

All my other plants are doing great - its only the carpeting plants which are struggling.

So just now the surface is disturbed by a 'fountain' from one of my filter outputs, but it still looks very steady. I was thinking about changing the set up so that the output spray bar sits above the water.

So, i understand what EI does, so could it be deficiencies in something which is creating the algae even though i am dosing expensive pre mixed ferts?

From James Planted Tank:

Macro Solution
33g Potassium Nitrate
7.2g Potassium Phosphate
250ml Water

Trace Mix Solution
10g Chelated Trace Element Mix (TNC Trace, CSM+B)
250 ml Water
0.5 ml Normal Hydrochloric Acid

Dosing
Using Solutions

Using the daily schedule below add the following 3 times a week:
5ml of Macro solution per 50 litres of water
2.5ml of Trace solution per 50 litres of water

 

[SuperColey1]

its only the carpeting plants which are struggling

This screams CO2 to me. CO2 is always lower the lower down you go, thats nature. We try and keep it there as long as possible but even in the biggest whirlpols with DC on yellow the substrate will still be much lower.

However.....

So, i understand what EI does, so could it be deficiencies in something which is creating the algae even though i am dosing expensive pre mixed ferts?

Many of these are snake oils Made up following out of date beliefs that mean they have no N&P in them etc.

A couple do follow the known facts like Tropica and Seachem plus a few more however you do pay for the privelidge of someone else using their £7 set of low weight digital scales (or herb/jewellery scales) and then packaging them in a bottle for you

Just follow James recipe. EI adds an excess to make sure no fert runs out. You then do the water change to 'reset' the tank each week.

Once you do this you know there are enough ferts in the tank so any problems cannot be down to nutrient. They must be something else which is more often than not CO2 related.

Andy

 

[Rorie]

Previously i was dosing EI, but as i could not get rid of my algae, i stopped, as i thought that MAY have been contributing (it was suggested) to the BGA.

If you think CO2 may be the issue, what do you propose i do? I have a good reactor difuser which is fed through a spray bar at the top of my tank. I extended the spray bar so that it would distribute over a wider area, but the flow reduced big time when doing this.

I can think of two ideas - 1) shorten the spray bar and hope the force is enough to push the CO2 down to the substrate....or 2) move the spray bar further down my tank.

What do you think?

Many of these are snake oils Made up following out of date beliefs that mean they have no N&P in them etc.

What do you mean by N&P?

 

[SuperColey1]

Previously i was dosing EI, but as i could not get rid of my algae, i stopped, as i thought that MAY have been contributing (it was suggested) to the BGA.

Nope EI will mean that you have more than youneed therefore any problems must be related to something else.

BGA is normally associated with low nitrates and general maintenance issues. i.e. filter getting too clogged/not cleaned enough, substrate not cleaned etc. The powerheads should be removing the flow problem so maybe it is the filter? I clean my external monthly and it is never really that clogged. I break the rules everywher else as I never clean the substrate but I don't get BBA so maybe the filter is picking up most of the detritus.

If you think CO2 may be the issue, what do you propose i do? I have a good reactor difuser which is fed through a spray bar at the top of my tank. I extended the spray bar so that it would distribute over a wider area, but the flow reduced big time when doing this.

I'm not really a fan of spraybars. Sincle outlets tend to give a much better flow around the tank. Maybe try for a while with the spraybar taken off and just use the pipe the spraybar attaches too. Use the powerheads to push water downward. Also try not to get too many conflicts. You don't want one powerhead pushing water one way and another pughing it back. You just end up have a tidal machine

N&P are Nitrogen and Phosphorus. In this hobby we get them from nitrate and phosphate. Many of the 'hear say' followers believe old 'hypothesis' that N&P cause algae. They used to use N&P removers, try and keep N and P at zero levels. It isn't true at all. algae will grow in sterile water if you try.

However we know that plants need N and P so this is no good for us planted. The problem is that while the majority follow what their LFS tells them (and LFS' more often than not believe what they have always beleieved or been told) it means that the companies sell more product to these people and therefore they play to the belief eliminating N&P from their fertilisers. They even put a big bold 'contains no N&P which causes algae' on the label as a selling point

Brands like Seachem, Tropica, Fertz, Easylife are a little different in that they aren't pandering to this belief and put N&P in their ferts (albeit only a little)

So what would I do?
Clean filter totally, remove spraybar, Turn off the T5HO, Start EI. See what happens for 2 weeks. Improvement then we are on the way. Continues decline and it means nutrient is not a problem at all and we then move onto CO2.

One step at a time or we don't know what has made any changes.

Andy

 

[Rorie]

Sounds like a plan, Batman!

I think i follow what you are saying for the most part. My nitrates are high, and i clean my filter most weeks....yes....i appear to have more time for fish than i do the other half haha.

I previously used EI, so i think i will try the 'remove the spray bar' theory. Though i would have throught with the spray bar forcing the water out tiny holes, directly downwards would mean the chances of CO2 hitting the substrate were increased?

I guess i could allow the water to land ON the surface of the water rather than under. That would help break any surface tension of the still water. Am i likely to loose efficiency of the CO2 doing this - in the respect that the CO2 could be expeled before it reaches the water?

What is a sincle outlet? Do you mean single? I have a 'duck bill'. and also a nozle i can attach. What would be best?

 

[ian]

personally on a larger tank, i prefer the spraybar. This is quite a large tank isn't it. However, running C02 through a spraybar probably isn't the best plan (i know the BGA has nothing to do with C02). The C02 is going to go out the top of the tank quite quickly running through a spraybar. Single outlets are great on a smaller tank, but on a large tank you do get better more even distribution from a bar. As Andy says though, you're going to have to be careful were you position all these powerheads and outlets.

Is the filter up to a large tank? What filter are you running? I'm just thinking in the way of flow coming out of your spraybar.

 

[Ps3Steveo]

If your using an inline diffuser I'd get some lily pipes on one side of the tank pointing from one side to the other and on the opposite side put a koralia aiming down towards the substrate giving the natural flow more flow.

 

[SuperColey1]

My nitrates are high, and i clean my filter most weeks....yes....i appear to have more time for fish than i do the other half haha.

According to a hobby test kit? And what is high? I will ADD circa 60ppm a week to mine

Though i would have throught with the spray bar forcing the water out tiny holes, directly downwards would mean the chances of CO2 hitting the substrate were increased?

100% pressure from one area is more powerful than 10% spread around 10 different areas Spraybars 'spread' the flow out.

I guess i could allow the water to land ON the surface of the water rather than under. That would help break any surface tension of the still water. Am i likely to loose efficiency of the CO2 doing this - in the respect that the CO2 could be expeled before it reaches the water?

If you want to keep using the spraybar just point it directly across or 1mm downward. It will still give you the ripple if the bar is an inch below the surface.

What is a sincle outlet? Do you mean single? I have a 'duck bill'. and also a nozle i can attach. What would be best?

Where the hose meets the spraybar is an outlet. one 13mm or 16mm outlet. The spraybar in effect is a multiple outlet.

personally on a larger tank, i prefer the spraybar. This is quite a large tank isn't it. However, running C02 through a spraybar probably isn't the best plan (i know the BGA has nothing to do with C02). The C02 is going to go out the top of the tank quite quickly running through a spraybar. Single outlets are great on a smaller tank, but on a large tank you do get better more even distribution from a bar. As Andy says though, you're going to have to be careful were you position all these powerheads and outlets.

Is the filter up to a large tank? What filter are you running? I'm just thinking in the way of flow coming out of your spraybar.

I am thinking along the lines of the spraybar gassing off CO2 and also spreading out the flow . I think even on a big tank (*) the single outlet will be fine if the filter is adequate

(*) especially with 3 circulation pumps

I was also reading about how much a spraybar reduces the filter's turnover compared to a single outlet the other day. Think about it the total area of the spraybar's holes are less than the area of the outlet feeding the spraybar. That doesn't mean that the same amount of water comes out of those small holes just at greater speed. Thats like trying to bang a large peg into a small hole. It will go in but will take longer.

Worth measuring if you are interested in the difference. Just need to try with and without into a bucket and see what the time difference to fill is. If indeed the flow is reduced by using the spraybar that kind of negates it's usefulness in spreading the flow out on a larger tank IMO.

I may try this on mine at some point because it does interest me (although I already use a lily pipe instead of the spraybar.

Andy

 

[Rorie]

So many choices haha.

If i get a lilly pipe, how should it be positioned? Half in the water? Above? Below?

Currently i have two external filters on the go - a tetratec ex1200 and an eheim pro 3 2075. both have spray bars attached to the back wall of the tank at the top. Both pointing at a 45 degree (ish) angle downwards. They aim at the front bottom edge of the tank. I then have my pumps on the side walls putting the water into a circular flow, downwards, rising at the back.....if that makes sense.

According to a hobby test kit? And what is high? I will ADD circa 60ppm a week to mine

Yes, API test kit. It is between 60 and 80ppm. I dont add anything to it, but still do 50% water changes once a week.

If you want to keep using the spraybar just point it directly across or 1mm downward. It will still give you the ripple if the bar is an inch below the surface.

THe spray bars dont ripple as they dont point across at all

I am thinking along the lines of the spraybar gassing off CO2 and also spreading out the flow . I think even on a big tank (*) the single outlet will be fine if the filter is adequate

How would it gass off with a spray bar? Is this assuming the spray bar is on top/near the top of the water? unlike my set up. I thought a lilly pipe would have more CO2 gassing off?

I'll get some photos up in a min which may help