Here's the thing

[Deleted member 149562]

So buy a book and reinvent what your father did, Simple. Don't make excuses about water etc. Work through those things and bring your findings back to the forum.

I do not need to reinvent anything. I still practice my fishkeeping just as my dad taught me to do. The only change I made is the use of bottled water instead of tapwater since the tapwater here is a disgrace and I refuse to add even more stuff to it (it has heavy chlorine, fluoride, phospates and goodness knows what else...I refuse to drink it and am not about to force my fish to swim in it)

I do NOT use or even buy any chemical/herbal additives or medications....my fish have water to swim in, nothing added. They do not and never have suffered any illness or disease. Just as my dad did with his aquariums, his fish died of old age...but they were considerably hardier than the fish available nowadays but then back then there was not the choice of fish that we have now, nor was there the clone/injection/genetic engineering available back then which inevitably makes bloodlines weaker thesedays.

As much as you enjoy a good argument, I am not going to argue with you....one size does not fit all and different people face different issues and deal with them differently when keeping any animal, not just fish.

 

[itiwhetu]

I do not need to reinvent anything. I still practice my fishkeeping just as my dad taught me to do. The only change I made is the use of bottled water instead of tapwater since the tapwater here is a disgrace and I refuse to add even more stuff to it (it has heavy chlorine, fluoride, phospates and goodness knows what else...I refuse to drink it and am not about to force my fish to swim in it)

I do NOT use or even buy any chemical/herbal additives or medications....my fish have water to swim in, nothing added. They do not and never have suffered any illness or disease. Just as my dad did with his aquariums, his fish died of old age...but they were considerably hardier than the fish available nowadays but then back then there was not the choice of fish that we have now, nor was there the clone/injection/genetic engineering available back then which inevitably makes bloodlines weaker thesedays.

As much as you enjoy a good argument, I am not going to argue with you....one size does not fit all and different people face different issues and deal with them differently when keeping any animal, not just fish.

Good job, your fish love you. And you are just doing things like they have always been done.

 

[xxBarneyxx]

40 years ago the height of technology was a UGF. I would rather stick with what we have now thank you.

Can you succeed with a UGF or sponge filter or even a plant only/no filter? Yeah, I have done it myself when it was appropriate.

Is that the best way for everyone and every situation? Not at all. I agree a lot of the modern additives are uneccersary. Saw a video where one guy was putting like 3 different bottled of stuff in his tank? And that wasn't even plant ferts.

However a lot of modern technics are simpler and more reliable. Modern filters vs old filters for example, LED vs T8 tubes.

I agree it's always worth looking back at how things used to be done. There is still good knowledge and wisdom to be gained there. However being in the mindset of "it was better back in my day" is just proving we are getting old

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I have a few old books, dedicated to this fishkeeping hobby of ours and certainly, after the 60s, it was claimed that all changes were based on 'science'.
Even the ancient Chinese believed they were following 'science' and 'science' in Victorian times told fishkeepers to light candles under their tanks.
Science, for all it being based on facts, is a fickle beast and prone to change over time, as new discoveries are made.
In the early 80s, science gave us the well-planted tanks and undergravel filters, working in union with the Nitrogen Cycle, to create truly self-contained ecosystems.
Plus (and this is a huge plus), you need to be able to actually understand the science in order to apply it. This requires a real education in the subjects and that takes hard work.

So, for many, science isn't a popular subject and this is where those for whom 'science' equates to 'Money' step in, to exploit the masses with shiny new electronic toys and a plethora of chemicals, pills, potions and lotions.
Today, we have the wonderful internet, were facts are believed to be opinions and those lacking in science knowledge select what appeals and spouts this as The Truth. For every truly excellent and informative YouTube site, there are at least a couple of others that are complete and utter shoemakers. Unfortunately, determining which is which requires knowledge that many simply do not possess.

Under all of this are simple and basic premises that I believe @itiwhetu is referring to. Think of them as a 'skeleton' of basic fishkeeping principles. These HAVE developed over time, from the simple pretty things in tanks to amuse, to the more complex ecosystems we try to emulate, BUT this change has been slow and, I believe, considered and for the good.
The gadgets and gizmos to provide the 'flesh' to hang onto that skeleton are more fleeting and, as @itiwhetu correctly asserts, are provided mainly to make money for those whose only interest is in making more money. A 'need' is perceived and products are produced with the express intention of exploiting that 'need'.
I'm not saying that all of the aforementioned are worthless and useless...some are outstandingly good, but many, many others are not.

Interesting thread.

 

[Guyb93]

I’m struggling with the idea of things being lost over time , if something worked 50 years ago it would still be passed over through the generations , yeah maybe you will see the evolution of the process and see why things are done the way they are now but I’m sceptical that I would find any information that that would make me think yeah less clean water is the way forward , if things were correct 50 years ago it would of never changed ... like dentistry pulling teeth out worked a thousand years ago so it never changed , a complete newbie learning information that’s 50 years dated could be more harmful than products new generation keepers are swayed into using , but I do leaning on the of it works for you then use it but I’d never encourage anybody to do things that work for me it’s an experience thing that every body should learn not read about

 

[itiwhetu]

I will just summarize one point.

Why is it that none of the new ideas in fish keeping end up saving you money. Why is it that all the new ways cost. Surely there can be new methods that make the hobby cheaper rather than more expensive.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I’m struggling with the idea of things being lost over time , if something worked 50 years ago it would still be passed over through the generations

Example from 1960 book...Fill your tank with fish and, if you overstock, the weakest ones will die off until a balance is reached.
Example from a 1970s book...by two of each tetra available, to add colour to your tank.
Example from a 1980s book...fish will grow to the size of the tank.

In each of those examples, the authors and the fishkeeping public would've been convinced that they were true and that they 'worked'. There are many on the internet today who will talk about their marvellously successful tanks, following principles that most of us would be rightfully horrified by. If it works for them, then c'est la vie and I believe they've been lucky with the Fish Gods. (I'd really love to eyeball those tanks, though).

, yeah maybe you will see the evolution of the process and see why things are done the way they are now but I’m sceptical that I would find any information that that would make me think yeah less clean water is the way forward , if things were correct 50 years ago it would of never changed ... like dentistry pulling teeth out worked a thousand years ago so it never changed , a complete newbie learning information that’s 50 years dated could be more harmful than products new generation keepers are swayed into using , but I do leaning on the of it works for you then use it but I’d never encourage anybody to do things that work for me it’s an experience thing that every body should learn not read about

Perhaps dentistry wasn't a good example. Teeth are only pulled nowadays if absolutely necessary and methods used are significantly less barbaric.
Expert aquarists certainly existed long ago, but many of them were totally unaware of why their tanks were so successful. They could be copied, but if you were unaware of the 'why', you'd struggle in fixing things when stuff went wrong.
There is so much more better info today, supported by better equipment and resources. Unfortunately, it's all greatly diluted by commercial and public ignorance.

 

[Deleted member 149562]

Question.....

When does anyone actually stop learning about anything?

Fishkeeping like everything else evolves and changes.....do we ever stop learning...I don't believe that we do.

 

[Guyb93]

I will just summarize one point.

Why is it that none of the new ideas in fish keeping end up saving you money. Why is it that all the new ways cost. Surely there can be new methods that make the hobby cheaper rather than more expensive.

That’s a very good point , anything now is profit and margins and it’s sad that things are becoming less accessible to people because of money and I agree if you can do something for free instead of spending money then it’s worth while

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

I will just summarize one point.

Why is it that none of the new ideas in fish keeping end up saving you money. Why is it that all the new ways cost. Surely there can be new methods that make the hobby cheaper rather than more expensive.

My new lighting is saving me money...less power, plus greater longevity.
My new filter uses less power.
My new heater can be adjusted, saving power. It'll also last longer than the older ones, back in the day.
My Tropica plants have certainly paid for themselves.
Better foods mean less waste and healthier fish.
Effective water conditioner...again, saving me fish and bacteria for my biological filtration.

How much money, back in the day, was spent on buying more fish to replace those that had 'mysteriously' died? Look how much shorter expected lifespans for those fish were.
Today, amongst the more serious fishkeepers, deaths are a rarity and we have to spend the money on new tanks instead! Fish lifespans also appear to have significantly grown.

 

[itiwhetu]

Example from 1960 book...Fill your tank with fish and, if you overstock, the weakest ones will die off until a balance is reached.
Example from a 1970s book...by two of each tetra available, to add colour to your tank.
Example from a 1980s book...fish will grow to the size of the tank.

In each of those examples, the authors and the fishkeeping public would've been convinced that they were true and that they 'worked'. There are many on the internet today who will talk about their marvellously successful tanks, following principles that most of us would be rightfully horrified by. If it works for them, then c'est la vie and I believe they've been lucky with the Fish Gods. (I'd really love to eyeball those tanks, though).

Perhaps dentistry wasn't a good example. Teeth are only pulled nowadays if absolutely necessary and methods used are significantly less barbaric.
Expert aquarists certainly existed long ago, but many of them were totally unaware of why their tanks were so successful. They could be copied, but if you were unaware of the 'why', you'd struggle in fixing things when stuff went wrong.
There is so much more better info today, supported by better equipment and resources. Unfortunately, it's all greatly diluted by commercial and public ignorance.

I like those examples, but not ones I have read. I have a library of books all of which follow the principles of fish keeping as we know it today, but without the gizzmos.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

Question.....

When does anyone actually stop learning about anything?

Fishkeeping like everything else evolves and changes.....do we ever stop learning...I don't believe that we do.

In that, it's very much like gardening...it's always a work in progress.

 

[xxBarneyxx]

Why is it that none of the new ideas in fish keeping end up saving you money. Why is it that all the new ways cost.

Cost of a UGF in the 80's compared to a similar internal filter now is about the same.

Some cheap LED lights are cheaper then T8 or T5 units.

There is a MUCH wider selection of equipment available then there used to be. Much of it on the budget side may be of questionable quality but its there and cheaper and some bargains can be had.

Also even if you take a look at the likes of ADA which are insanely expensive there is always a cheap, DIY alternative that only came about because a company like ADA came up with it first.

If you look at the salty side of things there is a TON of both commercial and DIY equipment that wasn't available 20 years ago which has really made a massive difference in what corals and fish we can now keep.

 

[Bruce Leyland-Jones]

That’s a very good point , anything now is profit and margins and it’s sad that things are becoming less accessible to people because of money and I agree if you can do something for free instead of spending money then it’s worth while

Back in the day, (there's that phrase again)...fishkeeping wasn't the cheapest of hobbies and so, perhaps, we tried to be more careful. Mistakes cost.
Today, anyone can fork out a few quid and have a pretty box full of pretty things very quickly.

 

[CaptainBarnicles]

Why don't you share your insight for those of us who don't know anything from 40 years ago? Give some examples of what we could do instead of buying something