Guidance Needed For A Newbie!

[Bobtastic]

Hi all! I am extremely new to this Tropical Fish keeping milarky, and after having a read around the beginners section I seem to have fallen into the typical beginners trap...

I have bought a Juwel tank but I'm not 100% sure of the model... The dimentions seem to be 80x35x40 (when I measured it with my tape measure) and it's sat perfectly on a SB80 cabinate stand. So I'm not sure of the exact litreage/gallonage... The filter is a Bioflow 400 that fits into the internal box.
Ok... So, on Good Friday (10/04) my girlfriend and I went looking for a tank and walked out with the above. Not really a problem, in itself. We then setup the tank, gravel substrate, couple of lup o' rock, a peice o' wood and some live plants.

This it where it goes down hill a little... We decided to put our goldfish into the newly setup/filled tank. We then left the tank for a couple of day and under the impression we'd been going about everything correctly we bought some platies.

Now... we have a Nutrafin Mini Master Test kit, but if I'm honest I'm not really sure how to read the kit properly... I've tested the water pretty much everyday so far but I haven't seem much differences in the levels...

I did a 20% (I think) water change on Tuesday and tested the water at 17:25 yesterday and they are the results I got :

Ammonia - 0.6
Nitrite - 0.3
Nitrate - 5
pH - 6 (possibly 6.5)

I wasn't sure if that ammonia level was bad so I did 10% water change again yesterday. The fish seem happy and are eating well but I'm not sure if the tank is cycling, cycled or none of the above!

I am also a wee be concerned about the pH, is that too low? The water has a pH of 6 from the tap... I've started introducing a pH (7) buffer into the water that I am changing but I'm not sure if that is the right thing to be doing either...

I appologies for all the writting just thought I'd try and get all the info in the OP.

 

[Anna Robinson]

If your aquarium is a Juwel it's either a Rio 125 or a Rekord 800. I can't be totally sure which from your measurements. See here:

[URL="http/www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/rio.htm?cat=4"]http/www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/rio.htm?cat=4[/URL]

[URL="http/www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/rekord.htm?cat=1193"]http/www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/rekord.htm?cat=1193[/URL]

Although I'm confused as to why it has a different filter in it, as Juwels come with all the filter materials?

The tank is in the middle of cycling - you are still showing ammonia but are beginning to show nitrite as well. Don't add any more fish until ammonia and nitrite have dropped back to zero. Any ammonia reading is bad for for the fish, but your ammonia is quite low, and because of the pH it is not affecting the fish at the moment. However, it can fluctuate, and nitrite levels will presumably start going up from now on too. Partial water changes always help if levels get too high, and you can also buy water treatments from your fish shop to remove ammonia/nitrite if necessary.

Goldfish and platies don't make ideal tankmates, as goldfish aren't tropical and will grown very large. Probably the easiest thing to do would be to re-home the goldfish in a pond, once outdoor temperatures are warm enough for the transition to be comfortable.

A pH of 6 is a bit low, 7 is ideal, although it obviously depends on what species you want to keep. 6 is a little low for platies and goldfish, who both prefer above neutral. If you live in an area with acid tapwater, your local fish shops should be used to this problem, and can advise you on using your pH buffer. But I personally wouldn't recommend fiddling with your pH at the moment - leave it until your ammonia, nitrite, etc has settled, as I don't think you want to put the fish under any more stress.

Hope all that made sense!

 

[Curiosity101]

If your aquarium is a Juwel it's either a Rio 125 or a Rekord 800. I can't be totally sure which from your measurements. See here:

<a href="http/www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/rio.htm?cat=4" target="_blank">http/www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/rio.htm?cat=4</a>

<a href="http/www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/rekord.htm?cat=1193" target="_blank">http/www.juwel-aquarium.de/en/rekord.htm?cat=1193</a>

Although I'm confused as to why it has a different filter in it, as Juwels come with all the filter materials?

The tank is in the middle of cycling - you are still showing ammonia but are beginning to show nitrite as well. Don't add any more fish until ammonia and nitrite have dropped back to zero. Any ammonia reading is bad for for the fish, but your ammonia is quite low, and because of the pH it is not affecting the fish at the moment. However, it can fluctuate, and nitrite levels will presumably start going up from now on too. Partial water changes always help if levels get too high, and you can also buy water treatments from your fish shop to remove ammonia/nitrite if necessary.

Goldfish and platies don't make ideal tankmates, as goldfish aren't tropical and will grown very large. Probably the easiest thing to do would be to re-home the goldfish in a pond, once outdoor temperatures are warm enough for the transition to be comfortable.

A pH of 6 is a bit low, 7 is ideal, although it obviously depends on what species you want to keep. 6 is a little low for platies and goldfish, who both prefer above neutral. If you live in an area with acid tapwater, your local fish shops should be used to this problem, and can advise you on using your pH buffer. But I personally wouldn't recommend fiddling with your pH at the moment - leave it until your ammonia, nitrite, etc has settled, as I don't think you want to put the fish under any more stress.

Hope all that made sense!

If the pH is at around 6 then this will more than likely stall the cycling process, so actually I'm going to suggest it would be better to raise the pH.
Just try to do it slowly, 0.2 a day should be fine.

I agree with everything else posted above though! Good luck.

 

[Bobtastic]

By the looks of the lint you've posted it must be a Rekord 800 (unless it is an older model that isn't shown on the site...). So to confuse you about the filter the Bioflow Super 400 is what came with it and thinking about it that is more likely to be the pump rather than the filter.

I forgot to mention that the goldfish was relocated almost as soon as the Platies where introduced to the tank... He started nipping at them so he was put into solitary confinement.

That all makes sense, I'll just have to keep up with the regular water changes.

Curiosity101 - I guess I should keep adding a scoop of pH(7) buffer in to the new water when I do a change?

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Bobtastic and welcome to the "New to the Hobby" forum!

We don't usually recommend the use of pH adjusters for a variety of reasons. Why don't you get some tap water out into a container and after a half hour or more do a battery of tests on it with your Nutrafin kit and post up the results for us. That way we will have an idea of what we can accomplish with a water change (for instance, perhaps water changes will be enough to keep your pH up in a reasonable range for the progression of the cycle.)

I agree with the goldfish comments, they are best in ponds, otherwise they take up huge coldwater tanks by themselves and few people want to go to that trouble. We'll assume you are working out a plan for the goldfish. As for the platies, it would be ideal, if you happen to have one of the rare shops that will do this or if you happen to have fishkeeper friends, if you re-homed these fish for the duration of a fishless cycle. We will understand of course if you find this impossible.

So assuming you can't re-home them, you are left in a "fish-in" cycling situation. Often this is described to beginners as just some sort of option for starting a tank. In fact, ammonia, even in very small amounts causes permanent gill damage and either shortens the fish's life or kills it. The first nitrogen cycle product after ammonia, nitrite(NO2) is also deadly in even small amounts and causes permanent nerve damage leading to a shortened life or death, depending on the individual fish. This is why the technique of "fishless cycling" that was worked out in the 1980's is such a good thing!

Regardless, the members are here to help you do the best "fish-in" cycle possible if you have to do that. The goal in fish-in cycling is to figure out a pattern of frequency and percentage water changes that allow you to get back to the tank prior to either ammonia or nitrite(NO2) rising above 0.25ppm (in your case we can take the 0.30ppm reading that the Nutrafin kit shows.) In fish-in cycling its important not to be afraid of large water changes. The presence of ammonia or nitrite in the tank is much more negative to the fish than any sort of worry that says you should do small water changes. 50-70% water changes are in order if you see levels above the 0.30ppm reading and you can perform a second water change as soon as an hour after the previous one if necessary.

You need to use good water change technique: During cycling especially its a good safety practice to use conditioner (this is the product you no doubt have that removes chlorine or chloramine from the water.. Prime is a good product if you don't already have one.) During cycling it can even be good to dose this at 1.5 times whatever the bottle says. This is because your bacterial colonies are still fragile and sometimes the water authorities will dump in excess amounts of chlorine/chloramine. But don't multiply it more than 2x the recommended dose in the directions as that could actually slow down the bacterial growth. Secondly, I recommend you roughly temperature match (your hand is good enough) the new water to the existing tank water.

Finally, begin reading and re-reading the Beginners Resource Center here in the forum and ask questions here in your thread. Read other beginners threads and also explore around the different subforums as there's a lot to learn in the hobby. Hope you have fun!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Bobtastic]

Ahhh! The famous waterdrop!

So I just need to fill up my "fresh" water bucket let it stand for 30mins and do the usual tests?

The Nutrafin test kit seems to start (as in the first colour) at 0.6 for Ammonia and 0.3 for Nitrites, is it safe to assume that if I see any colour change in this two to do a partical water change?

I'm a little concerned that my low pH level will hinder the progress of the cycling. It is at pH6 out of the tap and I've been trying to raise it slowly using a pH buffer (7) but atm it doesn't seem to have made much of a difference (maybe .5). I was reading one of you early posts about use crushed coral etc to raise it up, would that be a good idea?

Here are the results from last night and this morning, they are basically the same...

16/04/09 - 18:42

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0.2
Nitrates - 5
pH - 6.5

Carried out 10% water change (conditioned and buffered)


17/04/09 - 07:12 (roughly 12hrs later)

Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0.2
Nitrates - 5
pH - 6.5

 

[waterdrop]

Yeah, you potentially have enough of a problem to warrant making changes...

So now we know your pH is really low out of the tap. Based on this it would be idea to seek a KH test kit. You can either get a straight KH kit or a combined GH/KH kit as is common. TetraTest and API both make good kits and of course Salifert is fine and probably most others as these should not be difficult kits to create. Knowing KH in your case will be good both for further diagnosis and also for your own maintenance over time of changes you make.

Depending on how much trouble it is to get to your LFS vs. money etc. you can decide if you want to pick up a bag of crushed coral at the same time. Crushed coral is actually both broken coral bits and shell bits. In both cases they gradually wear away, adding hardness to your water, very slowly bringing both the carbonate hardness (KH/TA) and the pH (H+ ion count) upward. The trick is the "slow," which is essential for your fish and also the crushed coral is superior to the different type chemicals used in pH adjuster products usually.

During cycling, the growth of the colony will usually slow significantly at about pH 6.6, stall at 6.2 and is pretty much totally stopped and dormant at 6.0. At 5.5 or below it is reportedly possible to kill off the bacteria, although we've had observations of that not happening here on TFF.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Bobtastic]

Ok... So I definitely need to "improve" the pH of the tank.

I don't really have a problem getting to a couple of difference LFS (how good they turn out to be only time will tell!). I was looking at a bag of crushed shells (I think it was oyster) in the shop the other day but wasn't sure if that was the same sort of thing... How finely "crushed" is crushed?

I'll get myself a GH/KH test kit at the same time as getting some CC.

EDIT: I've just called one of the LFS and apparently the do crushed oyster substrate. Is that what I'm looking for?

 

[waterdrop]

The stuff I have and have seen in other situations is fairly rough and large, larger than typical aquarium gravel for instance. It normally comes in a plastic bag and has specifically been cleaned and readied for aquarium use (no salt etc.) My particular brand was "Florida Crushed Coral" I believe but doubt you'd find same over there.

I do not know if oyster is the same thing. I mean, oyster shell technically should probably work, but don't know if it might be slower to make the KH change. Perhaps another member will know. Having them say its for substrate doesn't really help us qualify or disqualify it, as some people do indeed simply dump crushed coral in as substrate with the intent of raising KH/pH, but on the other hand I'm sure its sometimes sold simply because people think beds of oyster shells look like cool underwater scenes and they may not even understand that it alters pH. If you seem to get an experienced LFS person you could discuss and come back and discuss here...

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Bobtastic]

Ok, I went to my LFS and picked up a bag of crushed coral. It is quite chunky and has bits of shell in too. I balled some up and playfully slipped it into a section of old tight and it's currently sat at the bottom of the tank. I also got a GH/KH testing kit (Nutrafin) and did a test b4 I added the CC ball.

17/04/09 - 18:18
GH - 3drops, which worked out at 60 mg/l
KH - 9drops, which worked out at 90 mg/l

I haven't tested the GH/KH this morning, but there was a definite change in the overall pH. As I understand it (from your very thorough first post) KH is the waters ability to hold it's current pH level when other chemicals are added (e.g. ammonia, nitrites and nitrates) but I'm not sure what the GH does or how it affects the pH of water. I'll do a full test of the water again tonight and see if there any changes.

I'm still finding it difficult to read/work out the Nutrafin test kit but I think the last round of test are as below.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0.3
Nitrate - 10
pH - 6.5 (I think the previous results were actually closer to pH6)

Unfortunately I am without the internet at my girlfriends house (where the fishies are) so i might not be able to update you until Monday...

 

[greenscooby]

Not been on for a while so catching i'm playing catch up.

You have a Juwel Rekord 800 the same as me, a very nice beginners tank.

Mark.

 

[Bobtastic]

Thanks Mark. I think it's an 800, it was the last one that they had so was on display so it didnt come with any information... It could be the Rekord 80...

 

[waterdrop]

Your GH/KH test out higher than I would have expected from the previous discussion. A KH of 9 is a very solid buffer, making it unlikely that acids in the tank will drop your pH. I probably would have posted test results for a bit before taking action with the CC. But, actually, the CC ball sitting out in the tank rather than in the filter will be even slower to cause any changes and it may not be a bad thing to let this go a while and see if we get some slow pH rise.

I'm still not clear on which set of numbers is your test of your source/tap water, could you post those again clearly so we can see tap rather than tank numbers?

How big was the CC ball? Normally we'd start with just a small pile, smaller than a full handfull.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Bobtastic]

I have been using a pH(7) buffer so that will be why the KH is so high. The tap water comes out like this :

pH -6
GH - 3drops = 60mg/l
KH - 4drops = 40 mg/l

The CC ball was probably about 3.5-4cm (2.5inchs). I may have been a bit bigger than I should have started with but it hasn't made a major difference to the pH. I wasn't really sure how I would put the CC ball into my internal Juwel filter so thought it best to just pop it into the tank proper...

Thought I posted the pre-CC ball test results but obviously didnt.

17/04/09 - 18:18

Ammonia - 0.3
Nitrite - 0.3
Nitrate - 5
pH - 6.2

CC ball added

18/04/09 - 09:40

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0.3
Nitrate - 7
pH - 6.5

18/04/09 - 17:51

Ammonia - 0.6
Nitrite - 0.5
Nitrate - 8
pH - 6.7

19/04/09 - 11:54

Ammonia - 0.3
Nitrite - 0.7
Nitrate - 11
pH - 6.7

20% Warer Change

 

[OldMan47]

Until you get the KH above about 4 drops, the pH will be a bit unstable. Above that value it will settle right out and likely show a pH of 7.0 or more.