Green Goddess's First Fishless Cycle (240 Ltr)

[greengoddess]

OK, I did a 95% water change last night and I almost made a CATASTROPHIC mistake. I forgot to add the dechlorinator until the tank was over a 3rd full of clean water. As soon as I realised I immediately added it and gave it a good stir in. I thought I may have killed off the bacteria in the filter. Anyway, I have checked the water today and the 3.2ml of ammonia has been processed so it looks like the bacteria have survived. Nitrite is already up to 3.3 and nitrate is back to full strength of 110.

 

[waterdrop]

Its rare that unconditioned water can damage a reasonably started set of colonies very quickly, you didn't need to worry that much. Some people do as large as 30% water changes without water conditioner, taking the risk but finding that their bacteria is not wiped out. With new colonies in a cycle though its usually not a good risk to take and even throughout the life of the tank many don't want to risk their fish or bacteria to possible chlorine/chloramine overdoses by the water department.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[greengoddess]

Yes, I'll certainly have to try and remember in the future. I'm pleased it didn't do too much damage. I would hate to have to start this cycle again.

 

[greengoddess]

Hi Waterdrop,

Well, we're right back to where we were just 1 week ago. Nitrate is though the roof again, nitrite 3.3 but ammonia is still being processed. Is it time for yet another complete water change?

 

[Dan-CR4]

sorry, take no notice of this post, did not read full thread.

 

[greengoddess]

Hi Danny

No problem about jumping into my thread. I am using industrial grade ammonia. I work in a lab and have access to the super concentrated ammonia solution (30% solution .880 ammonia). You can't buy this stuff over the counter. Anyway, that's why I'm only adding 3.2ml to my 240 litre tank. The concentration of your ammonia will probably be somewhere between 5 and 10% so you're probably adding the correct amount. If you have a liquid test kit for ammonia then you can confirm the 4ppm concentration after you've added the ammonia (after you've waited for it to thoroughly mix in to the water of course).


By the way, I nearly ended up in jail a fortnight ago. I took a vial of the super strength ammonia and left it in the inside pocket of my jacket. I then forgot about it for a few days and went over to The Netherlands on a quick weekend trip. I didn't realise until I was in a restaurant in Amsterdam that I had gone through airport security and customs with the vial still in my jacket!!!

 

[Dan-CR4]

i just read further down in your thread, then edited my post, i feel rather silly now....

wow 30%...... that stuff must really smell.

 

[greengoddess]

wow 30%...... that stuff must really smell.

I can assure you that you have absolutely no idea how strong the odour is from this stuff. I'm lucky to have the use of a professional extraction fume cupboard at work. When I take the ammonia from the main container and put it into small vials for taking home I always do it inside the fume cupboard. Even so, we have to evacuate the whole lab afterwards because it still seeps out and nearly suffocates us all. The only way I can get the stuff into my fish tank without gassing the house out is to push a syringe through the rubber top of the vial, extract the required amount and then put the vial and syringe completely under the water whilst I pull out the syringe and inject the contents into the tank. Doing it that way gives no noticeable odour.

Sometimes I wish I had just used the more common household ammonia.

 

[Dan-CR4]

i hate the household one with a vengence, i swear everytime i open the bottle it smells worse than the last time i opened it. i cannot begin to imagine how bad the one u are using smells....

 

[waterdrop]

That stuff sounds pretty wild. I'll bet a number of our fishless cyclers with big tanks would appreciate it though, not having to dose larger amounts.

If you want to stay entertained with my latest little thought of an experiment you could try the tinyest partical pinch of well pulverized fishfood. Nothing to support it but a couple of threads and thoughts make me think it might be interesting to have a few ammonia fishless cycles out there trying it. Certainly couldn't hurt anything at least.

WD

 

[greengoddess]

Hi Waterdrop,

I'm not sure if you saw my recent message. The nitrate in my tank is already through the roof again just a week after the last complete water change. Do you think I need to do yet another water change?
Also, I'm not sure what you meant about the fish food. Am I to try using that instead of the ammonia?

Yes, this super strength ammonia is wild alright. It burns like hell if you get a drop on your hands. The odour is mindblowing.

 

[waterdrop]

No, I'm keeping tabs on you and I know your NO2 and NO3 are both high again. I have a new theory that the NO3 test in the Nutrafin kit is much more likely to just peg whenever the NO2 pegs than the API NO3 kit. I've seen NO3=110 linked with NO2=3.3 for about 4 or more nutrafin kit users just recently and one of them noticed that NO3 immediately began showing 10ppm as soon as NO2 dropped to zero. Its also a long running thing that we know NO2 presence can elevate NO3 test results in general. I think it happens to the API kit too some but shows up more erratically and is otherwise different. Anyway, no big deal but it makes me less inclined to go for another water change so quickly in a case like yours as it may well be nothing more than a standard nitrite spike with nitrate really somewhere around 10ppm.

I've also been reluctant to advise another big water change for you because the tank is so big, and because we don't want to disturb the cycle -too- often. It has been a while now though, right? So if you feel like it you could be thinking about another one on some weekend up ahead when you are not out of town and feel like spending time with your tank.

Also, yes, I know you are ammonia cycling and no, I wasn't losing it, I really did mean it about -also- putting that partial pinch of fishfood (I assume you have some) in there, in addition to the ammonia (just once.) This is just totally me feeling experimental and knowing you are a lab person of sorts. I've been thinking a lot about how one of our experienced members, Neale, really likes his fishfood fishless cycles and combining that with a thread where someone did a little pinch into their ammonia cycle and seemed to think it might have helped. It was probably coincidence but I got to thinking that maybe when the heterotrophs are stimulated to break down some organics into ammonia.. maybe something about them doing that also serves as some sort of extra signal that the autotrophs can pick up on, that stimulates them somehow. After all, these types of species have been living in close proximity for millions of years, so there may be further signaling complexities beyond just straight "ammonia is food."

WD

 

[greengoddess]

Wow, thanks Waterdrop. That is good technical stuff!

Yes, the instructions in my Nutrafin kit say quite clearly that a high nitrite level will affect the result of the nitrate test. Perhaps you are correct. It seems quite amazing that after doing a 95% water change the nitrate level can jump straight back up to >100 within 24 hours which is what has been happening.

OK, I just about understand your theory about adding a pinch of fish food. I'll do that this week sometime. I suppose it can't really hurt the cycle. Any idea how much I should put in? Are we still talking about a tiny pinch even though it's a 240 litre tank?

 

[OldMan47]

I must agree with WD on his desire to use you as a test case. I see a lot of potential in your cycle for us to learn but must admit that it does nothing for you. It means that you are going to be our test animal to explore the benefits, if any, of using a bit of fish food to help you develop the other bacteria that are not normally addressed by a fishless cycle. I have seen the same posts by Neale that WD refers to and am intrigued by the idea that the real benefit of a fishless cycle may not be realized by using a strictly ammonia source for the cycle. Neale speculates that things besides the AOB / NOB develop during a fishless cycle that uses fish food in place of pure ammonia. I am hesitant to agree with him since I know that many of the more prolific bacteria in my tanks can very rapidly adjust to changes in nutrient levels. When I have a "bacterial bloom" the bacteria involved can easily double in less than an hour so I am not convinced that their presence really matters one way or the other when it comes to handling waste food and causing it to decompose. Waste food will decompose fine without encouraging the bacteria for that on purpose, at least in my own opinion. The concept seems to be closely related to what Neale is trying to sell with his posts, so I am inclined to not worry much about his opinions on the subject. Nevertheless, it would be great to have a fish food and an ammonia fishless cycle to compare side by side to see if there really is any difference.

 

[greengoddess]

Hi OldMan

I would be only too willing to help. However, as a complete newbie, I have two concerns:

1. I have two fantail goldifsh that have been living in a 25 ltr tank since Christmas and I want them in their new 240 litre home ASAP before they suffer any more. I have the new 240 ltr tank to keep an eye on at the same time as trying to maintain a healthy environment in the tiny 25 ltr tank. As you will appreciate, keeping the water in the 25 ltr tank in good order requires frequent attention with two messy goldfish in there. What I am getting round to saying is that I don't want to jeopardise the fishless cycle in the large tank as I can't afford to start over again. As long as adding a few bits of fish food to this cycle won't increase the risk of anything going badly wrong then I'm ready for the challenge.

2. I have two full time jobs (one working 12 hour shifts and the other running a mail order business) so I have precious little time for anything. If the idea of me becoming a test bed for a food/ammonia cycle is going to mean a huge increase in work then I will probably have to turn down your kind offer.

So, other than those two points... I'm all set to go! Tell me what to do and I'll do it.