Gourami Sick?

[willquinn]

Hi,

I am new to tropical fishkeeping. I setup a new 80litre tank on Sunday 29 March. I let it sit for a few days, added good bacteria treatment for quick start, waited a day as per the instructions and introduced 5 neon tetras and a siamese fighter on the Thursday. All water was treated with Tetra Aquasafe before being added to tank.

I bought 2 dwarf gourami's (at least that's what I think they are) in the lfs on saturday along with a few ornaments and plastic plants. I put in the plants and ornaments which stirred up the substrate an awful lot. (the substrate is sand with gravel on top). The water remained cloudy for a day or so, even now (Tuesday) it is cloudy to a certain extent but nowhere near as bad as it was.

Water parameters are well within safe limits. I used Ammonia liquid testing kits and tetra 6in1 strips for everything else.:
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0mg/l
nitrate = 10mg/l
General hardness = 16[sup]o[/sup]d
KH (hardness) = 3[sup]o[/sup]d
PH= 7.0
Chlorine = 0

I have noticed that my orange gourami has black spots/markings around his head and back around his dorsal fin, in the pictures they look almost like veins. See pics:

Is this anything to worry about? He has been eating, although not very much, I noticed the betta pecking at back and side of this gourami like he was eating something from him, it didn't seem like he was being aggressive, the gourami didn't make any effort to move when the betta did this. I've also noticed that he doesn't swim about as much as he used to do when I first got him. He has also taken to sitting on the gravel for short periods and then swimming about slowly again.

On another note I have another gourami introduced at the same time. He is blue in colour but is also a dwarf. He hasn't eaten anything since saturday but is very lively, he keeps swimming up against the sides of the tank, rarely in the middle of it, almost like he was trying to swim through the glass to get out, is this normal?

Sorry for long post, but I am concerned that there may be something wrong and wanted to provide as much info as I could on my first post, I'm hoping someone can help me, thanks.

William.

 

[pippoodle]

you havent cycled the tank - what bacteria did you add - cos the instructions they tell you on the bottles dont cycle the tanks this takes time
please go to this link and read the posts on cycling
<a href="http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=277264" target="_blank">http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=277264</a>

it looks like ammonia burns on the fish - when did you test the water -
have you done a water change
what temp are you keeping the fish at

bettas are not suitable for community tanks - they are FIGHTING fish and your fish store should not have sold him to you for a community tank
please either take him back or remove him to another tank urgently
the nipping was aggressive

If the gouramis are both male then you will end up with aggression issues between them to , as they are very territorial

................
What you need to do now is either RETURN all your fish to the fish store and wait the 4-6 weeks for the tank to fishlessly cycle or get some mature media to add to your filter to clone the tank or the other option is to keep the fish and go the fish in cycle route

This method can end up with many fish dead and a lot of hard work

PLEASE research any fish before you buy them - i always do - the only way i sometimes get caught out is i do an emergency rescue , but then i immidiately find out info needed for the fish

 

[willquinn]

Thanks for the reply. Is it possible that it can get ammonia burning when the test kit says there is no ammonia present? I test the water on a daily basis for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, hardness, acidity etc.

Do the quick start kits lie then when they say that you can start adding fish the day after the quick start has been added?

btw, I've never changed the water as it has only been a week or so. I think I will change it today 20-30%, I have tetra aquasafe which will be added to the water before topping up the tank.

I have read up on cycling the tank, I also read that you can usually add fish after about a weeek of using quick start, however I thought I would follow the instructions on the product itself as they have been (or should have been) fully tested in a laboratory to when it would be safe to introduce fish to the tank.

There seems to be conflicting info on the fighting fish because most of the websites I've visited suggest that they can be good community fish, as long as there is only one betta per tank.

As a newbie I know there will be lessons to learn that no amount of reading can do. I read up on this topic for a month and every website I visited gave me different information, it's a matter of compiling the information together and using the common parts from all websites, which I feel I did, especially when it came to water testing and treatment.

Update, the fish seems to be quite lethargic, however swims quite fast to get food.

thanks for the help

 

[Netty]

There are very few tankmates that Bettas will get along with and some that will even go for Bettas, like Tetras and Guppies and Gouramis are a big no!!!!! Bettas are very territorial fish and do much better housed on their own, so if you are able to, I would try to get a small 5gal tank for him and make the tank a nice decorative centre piece so he can been shown off in his full glory. Eventually you will probably end up with severely damaged or dead fish and if the Betta is pecking at the Gourami then that will leave him open to infections.

The only other fish any of our Bettas have lived with successfully are Cories or peaceful Rasboras.

 

[Truck]

this is gonna end in tears! for the benefit of your, fish take them ALL back, and start fresh.

then come back for help

 

[fatheadminnow]

I agree with all of the advice given here above, this will certainly not end in a very desirable way if you keep on what you are doing.

First of all, like stated above, along with the aggression and territorial behavior of the fish, neon tetras will not survive, and if they do their lives will be painful and short, in a new tank, even a tank that has been CYCLED properly. Neon Tetras should only be introduced in a very well established tank, which is 6+ months old.

Putting the compatibility issues of the fish aside, as you now know that the fish you have cannot be housed together, and I am sure that you are finding this out the hard way.

I want to go into a little detail on where you are at, with cycling that is.

The products you have, Tetra Aquasafe, which is a good water conditioner and should be used every time you do a water change. However, you said that you added a good bacteria treatment for quick start. There is no bacteria treatment that is going to help a tank cycle, and in fact, some bacterial treatments may actually do harm to your biological filter.

Do the quick start kits lie then when they say that you can start adding fish the day after the quick start has been added?

The answer to this is YES. There is no product on the market, besides Bio Spira, but this product has been taken off of the market, that will speed up a cycle so much that you can SAFELY add fish in a week. Unless you get a MATURE filter from someone else, you have to cycle the tank properly.

Any product on the market right now that "Claims" that it will immediately cycle a tank is not true. Like I said, the only product known to do this is Bio Spira, bu unfortunately that product is no longer avaliable to us.

But you REALLY should take the fish back and do a proper FISHLESS cycle which is described here.

If you do decide to do a fish-IN cycle, which is where you are currently at, you must follow what is described here.

Is this anything to worry about? He has been eating, although not very much, I noticed the betta pecking at back and side of this gourami like he was eating something from him, it didn't seem like he was being aggressive, the gourami didn't make any effort to move when the betta did this. I've also noticed that he doesn't swim about as much as he used to do when I first got him. He has also taken to sitting on the gravel for short periods and then swimming about slowly again.

On another note I have another gourami introduced at the same time. He is blue in colour but is also a dwarf. He hasn't eaten anything since saturday but is very lively, he keeps swimming up against the sides of the tank, rarely in the middle of it, almost like he was trying to swim through the glass to get out, is this normal?

The reason why your fish are behaving in the way they are is because your water parameters are not good, due to the tank which is uncycled.

With water parameters that are not supposed to be where they are, you are putting EXTREME amounts of stress on your fish. Also, with the fish that you have, which are not compatibly with each other, this is also adding to the amount of stress as well.

With high levels of stress, the fish are going to loose their slime coat, and this will make them EXTREMELY vulnerable to what ever comes into contact with them, like the betta rubbing on your gourami, which is wearing away the scales/skin and leaving black marks.

Also, the blue gourami that keeps swimming up and down the glass is most likely trying to get out due to the bad water conditions, and the other fish that. are in the tank.

The fish that has not eaten is not a good sign, no matter how active he appears to be. When a fish stops eating this is either due to internal parasites, or high levels of stress. When a fish stops eating, this is most likely the end for him, sorry to say that.

Things to take into consideration IMMEDIATELY

1. For the safety of your fish, you should return the fish and proceed with a FISHLESS cycle, which I have provided a link for above.

2. If you do not want to return the fish and do a FISHLESS cycle, you have to IMMEDIATELY start doing a fish-IN cycle, which I have also provided a link for above.

I hope this helps you out a little, and that you take steps in the right direction for the safety of your fish.

-FHM

 

[willquinn]

Ok, so my tank is not cycled, I can't take my fish back to the shop as the shop as I won't be able to get back there for a few weeks as have a lot on, I will have to stick with cycling with fish in, unfortunately.

I have learned over the past month or so that it is ammonia that causes the problems in a tank, which is why a tank needs to be cycled so that it can break the ammonia down. In other words it is AMMONIA, NITRATE and NITRITE which is harmful to fish, ammonia being worse and Nitrate being tolerable. I know this much.

However given that I have NO ammonia, NO Nitrite and a tiny bit of Nitrate in my tank, how can my fish be suffering from Ammonia burns and the effects of an uncycled tank when there are none of the harmful chemicals associated with an uncycled tank present in its water? Is there other harmful chemicals in water and the substrate that could be harming my fish that I haven't tested for?

btw, I have the water temp sitting at 25 degrees C, or 77(I think) degrees F. Last night I did a 50% water change (treating the water with aquasafe, of course) and tested the water again this afternoon with same results as provided in first post.

My neons are not suffering from any ill effects yet they are supposed to be the most fragile fish. Maybe this is what happens in an uncycled tank?

Thanks

 

[fatheadminnow]

The reason to why this fish are getting the burns is probably from the level of stress from the other fish that are not compatible with each other, And when a fish gets stress they loose their protective slime coat, and they become very vulnerable to to stuff rubbing against them.

API Stress Coat is a very good water conditioner and it also has alovera, which helps replace the fishes slime coat, and reduces stress. So you can look into getting this for water a water conditioner.

Also, what Test kit are you using?

And it is Ammonia and NitrIte that, if over .25 ppm, is toxic to fish. NitrAte is also toxic to fish, but in a larger quantity. You usually dont want NitrAte to go over 50 ppm, max.

How often do you do water changes?

-FHM

 

[willquinn]

Thanks for quick reply, all makes sense now!

I'll order up some of that stress coat then.

The water change last night was the first one in a week since geting the fish. I had planned on doing a weekly water change but have changed my plans to a daily 10% for a couple of weeks. I am using Tetra 6in1 strips, and Tetra ammonia liquid testing kit. I now know, thanks to this place, that the strips can be unreliable.

Oh btw, fed my betta a cooked pea (removed the skin) which he gobbled up, maybe he just doesn't like the aquarian tropical fish food as he samples it and spits it out.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Thanks for quick reply, all makes sense now!

I'll order up some of that stress coat then.

The water change last night was the first one in a week since geting the fish. I had planned on doing a weekly water change but have changed my plans to a daily 10% for a couple of weeks. I am using Tetra 6in1 strips, and Tetra ammonia liquid testing kit. I now know, thanks to this place, that the strips can be unreliable.

Oh btw, fed my betta a cooked pea (removed the skin) which he gobbled up, maybe he just doesn't like the aquarian tropical fish food as he samples it and spits it out.

Its possible that is the case.

Just go ahead with a fish-in cycle, and get a good liquid test kit.

I would suggest an API Freshwater Master Test Kit.

-FHM

 

[pippoodle]

for the test kit wil try ebay cheapest place i found
good luck and keep us posted

 

[willquinn]

Just a quick update to my situation for those of you who are interested.

I have been performing daily water changes treating the water with Tetra Aquasafe and then when the water is added to the tank add about 10 - 20ml of API Stress Coat. I also add about 10-20ml of Nutrafin Cycle from time to time as a top up for the bacteria.

My orange gourami is now looking much better, the black marks have all but disappeared, his fins have perked up again and his colour is returning. He is also eating quite well and appears to be finding his territory, however he has started spitting out the Aquarian fish flakes, I'm starting to think the fish don't like that food, may have to change it.

The Siamese fighter has found his territory and defends it. The other gouramis stay away from his area only occasionally wandering in. The tank is 3ft long and has a lot of plastic plants were they can hide behind. The fighter doesn't chase the fish around the tank, if he sees them near his area he will swim closely towards them, they tend to get out of his way at that point. He absolutely refuses to eat the Aquarian tropical fish flakes and so has been living on cooked peas and bloodworms, which he gobbles up! His colour is getting better as well turning into a lovely deep blood red with a not very noticable blue tinge to it.

I had a neon die a couple of days ago, he hadn't eaten since he was introduced to the tank and never looked well. I now have 3 neons who are vicious eaters, will eat anything put into the tank. They are also very active in the tank and swim round every inch of it, whereas before they would have been huddled in a group in one area, only moving to feed. Their colours are very bright as well which I have been told is the sign of happy neons!

I am still concerned about the other blue gourami. He hasn't eaten in a week and am afraid that he will die. He still has a good colour to him, however is not swimming about as much as he used to, probably from lack of energy from not eating. I have tried fish flakes, peas and freeze dried bloodworms, no good.

I continue to test the water on a daily basis, Ammonia is still showing a bright yellow which according to the colour chart means there is no ammonia present.

Anyway I'm feeling more optimistic about everything, especially how my other dwarf gourami has perked up and will continue doing what I have been doing for another couple of weeks at least.

Many thanks to everyone who has provided advice so far and sorry for long post!

 

[fatheadminnow]

Sounds like you are getting the hang of things.

AS for the Tetra Aquasafe, and the API Stress coat, they both do the same thing to water. But the Stress Coat also has Alovera, which replenishes the fishes slime coat.

I would either use one or the other, I personally use Stress Coat Plus myself, this way if you only use one you will save money, unless money is not an issue for you?

The fish that is not eating might have internal parasites?

Can you give a detailed description about what he looks like? Any bloating/skinny, discoloration...etc...?

-FHM

 

[willquinn]

I took a pic. He looks a little skinny but I assumed that was from not eating, his fins aren't as perked up as they used to be. Apart from that he looks fine, I wouldn't say there was any discolouration.

Yea I feel that I am getting the hang of things. I already had a large bottle of aquasafe, I just picked up the stressplus as it was recommended. The fish certainly seem to be benefitting anyway.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Yeah, Stress Coat Plus is a very good product!

That is all I use.

-FHM