German blue ram fry floating and gathering in 1 corner of breeder box and dying

[confused_aquarist]

This isn't really my own issue, but I came across this problem in an online forum and was extremely curious about it.

I know that ram fry usually settle in the bottom upon hatching and stay there for a few days before free-swimming,
But this poster mentioned that their ram fry started floating in one corner immediately after hatch.
They absorbed their yolk sac at the surface rather than the bottom. There's supposedly enough oxygenation and no apparent water quality issue.
The fry died one by one. I'm wondering if this could be a genetic issue or a developmental issue linked to bacterial/viral infection.

 

[GaryE]

My suspicion is in the thread title. "Breeder Box". For delicate Cichlid fry like rams, they're death traps.

 

[confused_aquarist]

My suspicion is in the thread title. "Breeder Box". For delicate Cichlid fry like rams, they're death traps.

Are they that bad?? I thought breeder boxes would've been a better choice than rearing with the parents, since it's much easier to feed the fry.
In a larger tank a lot of food must be scattered across the water column risking water pollution. Either way, I wonder if this is a post-natal issue related to bacterial growth in the breeder box, etc.

 

[Mazain]

I know that ram fry usually settle in the bottom upon hatching and stay there for a few days before free-swimming,
But this poster mentioned that their ram fry started floating in one corner immediately after hatch.
They absorbed their yolk sac at the surface rather than the bottom.

I tried to artifically raise my discus eggs after the parents start eating the fry.
While starting incemination of the eggs, a few started swimming and most of them were attached to their yolkasac. After a day or two they were independant but did'nt swim and died.
The issue is that when raising cichlids artificially they don't get the parents faning, mouth blowing and dispatching the unfertile, fungus eggs to avoid deformities and motality.

 

[confused_aquarist]

I tried to artifically raise my discus eggs after the parents start eating the fry.
While starting incemination of the eggs, a few started swimming and most of them were attached to their yolkasac. After a day or two they were independant but did'nt swim and died.
The issue is that when raising cichlids artificially they don't get the parents faning, mouth blowing and dispatching the unfertile, fungus eggs to avoid deformities and motality.

Hmm. Requirement of fanning (to prevent pathogen growth??) and egg fungussing do seem to me like some water quality issue, or a genetic susceptibility of the eggs to infection of some sort. Maybe inbreeding or farm raising is related?

For wild killifish species, while I have seen many bellysliders due to water quality issue, I have never encountered an infertile/fungussed egg.

 

[Mazain]

For wild killifish species, while I have seen many bellysliders due to water quality issue, I have never encountered an infertile/fungussed egg.

I have not kept hemi-stomus fish or reached the stage of spawn.
I have bred texas cichlids, blue acaras, convicts and a few..
If the fry dose'nt make it pass yolk sac or free swimming stage, even if you think your water is perfect, they are infertile or not been inceminated properly.

 

[GaryE]

Breeder boxes are small, and usually have poor water circulation. In them, you can choose your problems - will it be Oodinium parasites, a major killer of softwater fry. Will it be localized ammonia from overfeeding? Or bacterial infections?

I had an accidental experiment once. I had Nanochromis transvestitus, many years ago when they were new in the hobby and quite expensive. They spawned, and because I wanted maximum numbers of fry, I stole the eggs and raised them artificially. I've never liked breeder boxes, so I used a second aquarium for them. I had about 30, and they were doing well.

After a bit, I realized I'd been outsmarted. The fish had been moving between two caves the whole time, and I realized they had spawned in both. it was a brilliant response to egg predator me. The mother was leading her gaggle of another 20 or so fry, which I had not fed. The ones I was raising ere getting meticulous water changes and freshly hatched artemia.

Hers were easily twice the size of mine.

I decided to trust nature and added a few of mine to her group. The parents accepted them, so they all went in. They rapidly caught up in size, and I caught up in learning.

Broodcaring Cichlid parents clean the fry by rolling them in their mouths. They use their bodies to create water circulation at night, when the fry are vulnerable. Studies have shown they analyze oxygen levels in areas of the tank, and lead the young to the best ones. They also avoid patches where decaying food produces pollution. In the micro-world of the fry, bacteria are prey and they lead the fry to the safest sources.

As well, it seems likely that such skillful parenting needs to be modeled. It's genetic, but it appears more in fish raised by their parents than in artificially raised one. In the hobby's ugly technicolour Discus, or strangely modified breeder angelfish, poor parenting is rife. It's also a problem with German Blue Rams, which are so often artificially raised for maximum profit.

You won't know what killed those fry unless you see them. Going to the surface sounds like seeking oxygen, but hypoxia/anoxia, oodinium, bacteria -they all can hit the gills.

 

[Mazain]

In the hobby's ugly technicolour Discus, or strangely modified breeder angelfish, poor parenting is rife.

I would'nt agree on the technicolour ugly discus in the hobby. As a beginner the godey technicolour is gona save you alot of money and choose the quality high grades.

Everything else I agree with GaryE.

 

[GaryE]

I couldn't resist a bit of mischief there as someone who doesn't like linebred fish....

 

[Mazain]

The fish had been moving between two caves the whole time, and I realized they had spawned in both.

Tell me about the caves. Was it setup or wabisabi.

 

[anewbie]

I've used breeder boxes before the trick is that frys esp rams are very very sensitive to poor water quality or ammonia and decaying corpses or food can easily kill them - so the water has to be kept very very clean and a bit of circulation helps. The circulation i used a breeder box that used an air tube to pump water into it and it then flows back into the tank it hangs on and a turkey blaster to remove ALL uneaten food within an hour and the few that die.

here are some angels i had once:

A few other tidbits i've learned - it works a lot better long term for frys to be kept with the mother - and they get very very nervous if kept in a container that does not have clear sides - for my angels i eventually split them into different groups with one group going into a pail and that group behaved very badly because they coudlnt' see me approach or pretty much anything outside the pail.
-
Anyway these days i leave the frys with the parents or mother until they no longer want much to do with her...

 

[OldFishKeeper]

My suspicion is in the thread title. "Breeder Box". For delicate Cichlid fry like rams, they're death traps.

Spot on, Gary. Too many variables for delicate GBR fry.

 

[GaryE]

For the caves question - a tangent but a good question - with fish like Nanochromis I place several pieces of slate, squared and maybe 10-15cm long, pushed into the gravel close to the bottom glass, and covered. Over them, I place a flat rock of slate sitting on the sand. There are always two of three such IKEA, build it yourself structures in a breeding tank. The fish excavate as part of their pairing ritual, and the flat rock settles onto its supports. They like to have multiple entrances, or with some pairs, the option of multiple entrances.

With all other Nanochromis that bred here (splendens, parilus, teugelsi), the pair chose one cave, but transvestitus excavated every possibility. Do they all do it? I only had one pair, and later their young, so I don't know if the whole species has that behaviour. But I do know they did a far better job of raising their fry well than I did.

 

[Mazain]

With all other Nanochromis that bred here (splendens, parilus, teugelsi), the pair chose one cave, but transvestitus excavated every possibility. Do they all do it? I only had one pair, and later their young, so I don't know if the whole species has that behaviour.

Nice, I kept a few Nanochromis and they were extremely sensitive to white and light substrate. They always kept low when sun light hit the tank.

 

[anewbie]

Kribs can also dig wonderful caves: