Gaping Mouth, swimming oddly.

[PheonixKingZ]

I am pushing the "1 inch per gallon" rule - which to me seems acceptable because:

This rule Is very inaccurate and informative. I can tell you this, but I can’t help with actual stocking. @Byron is better with that.

 

[kribensis12]

This rule Is very inaccurate and informative. I can tell you this, but I can’t help with actual stocking. @Byron is better with that.

I know it's inaccurate - as it does not take into account type of fish, etc. You can't put 20 inches of black convicts into a 20g. I just used it as a base reference as it's the most "Common" that I hear referenced.

I did see you post about Nitrates - the aquarium just tested at almost 0 nitrates (per my previous post) - which does not seem to then be causing the tetra issue?

 

[PheonixKingZ]

No, I’m starting to think the Nitrate isn’t your problem. I’m not sure what is. I’m still thinking on that.

 

[Retired Viking]

I pretty much only have and raise tetras but do not have serpaes tetras. I would return what serpase tetras you have to the pet store. There is a disease call neon tetra disease that affect tetra and some other fish but your fish does not have the symptoms from what you tell me. Most tetras are great community fish but many are weaken by interbreeding by commercial breeders. I have several of my tetras just die even with good water quality. Some times it is just stress which can be cause by lack of plants. hiding places or too bright of light. Tetras come from South American Jungles streams and are use to shade and having floating plants.

 

[kribensis12]

AHA - The worst aquarist award goes to me today. I figured it out, I think.

I was doing a water change during my break and it hit me - the tank is too quiet. Earlier today I noticed what appeared to be a reduce flow from my filter, but I thought it was my imagination. Normally, I'd expect to see fish gasping at the surface due to lack of aeration.

I opened up the filter and realized - somehow the stem & propeller had knocked themselves loose which restricted flow. From what I can figure, those poor tetras are the first fatalities of a long list due to oxygen deprivation. Thankfully I noticed it in time - the water change and filter flowing at 100% capacity should help. I lowered the water level to help increase gaseous exchange for the time being.

I feel terrible that my mistake led to their deaths - but it seems to most likely be the culprit. To turn a positive spin, I learned some new things today!

 

[PheonixKingZ]

THAT makes sense! I knew it couldn’t have been your water parameters! So did you fix your filter? Or is it broken beyond repair?

 

[Retired Viking]

It happens to all of us, I have lost my share of fish too. It is not your fault that it broke down. I hope the rest of your fish will be alright. I have to add this one to my question list next time we have a case like yours

 

[kribensis12]

THAT makes sense! I knew it couldn’t have been your water parameters! So did you fix your filter? Or is it broken beyond repair?

It's fixed and running like new. Now I'm going to be paranoid! I used to have an air stone in the tank as well, but it kicked up water onto the glass lid and caused algae like crazy - which then prevented light from getting to my plants!

 

[Byron]

I am here responding to the several issues in post #29. This agaiin will take some explaining (= lots of words ).

So, for someone who has more experience with illness - does the above symptoms (gaping mouth, odd swimming, being a loner and having another of the same type pass w/o symptoms) indicate a water issue (beyond the traditional Nitrates etc.) or does it seem likely that there could be an illness?

If it's an illness I definitely want to treat it - if it's a water issue, I'm hoping more frequent water changes will help solve it; but if it's medical I'd rather know sooner than later.

The symptoms can be due to almost any issue. Water conditions are often the issue because of the close inter-relationship with the fish's physiology. They may weaken fish allowing other disease issues to gain a foothold. Genetic problems. Internal injury during netting/transport. A disease carried on the new fish (or already in the tank to which the other fish are "immune" but not the new Serpae because they are under severe stress from the move).

Turning to adding medications, chemicals, treatments--almost always this will only make things worse. As I explained previously, every substance added to the water gets inside the fish, and this adds stress (at the very least) but may go much farther. If one can identify the disease, and then determine the most effective and safest treatment, fine. I tend to do water changes first, checking conditions and parameters, and only take action if I have good reason to expect "x" or whatever.

Regarding water parameters (pH, kH & gH), I understand that for some fish the water parameters are less than ideal - this is typical for any community tank. I know that community tanks can get a bad rep for this - I'm OK with that. The community style is mostly for my 3 year old son; I'd much rather do a biotype. (and larger!).

This is a critical issue. I tend to think of three categories of fish...soft water species that need soft water period, hard water species that need hard water period, and those species that may be either but can manage in the middle, and there are a lot of these. A community tank must have either soft water species only, or hard water species only, or species that suit middle-ground. Anything else just will not work, ever; the fish cannot adjust or adapt, this is a myth. But within the "middle ground" there are many options. All of my tanks are community tanks, but they only contain species that require those parameters/conditions. This is the first essential step in healthy fish. With this as background...

What would your recommended stocking rule for aquariums? I am pushing the "1 inch per gallon" rule - which to me seems acceptable because:
1. The tank is over-filtered - which means that there is a lot of beneficial bacteria & good gaseous exchange
2. The tank is planted, which has a positive effect on the aquarium as a whole

Each species being considered for any aquarium must meet the criteria of that tank. Water parameters obviously (including temperature, this drives fish metabolism and just a couple degrees can make a big difference to the health of the fish), and aquascaping materials (some fish need sand, some wood, some rocks, some plants--these can be authentic or artificial replacements, but the "substance" must be present). Water flow...not all fish will last in currents, or vice-versa. Light...I always have floating plants to help with this, plus the water quality improves. Shoaling fish need "x" number, and while we are forced into giving minimums, the fish will always be in better health with more than that--always. Swimming space...active fish like danios must have a longer tank than a comparably-sized fish like cardinal tetras, so more of the latter will work in a tank of "x" size than fewer of the former.

Filtration really is irrelevant. It is primarily needed for water movement, and this must take into account the needs of the fish so it is suited to all of them. Biological filtration is important, but a tank should be able to run without a filter--if not, it is overstocked or improperly stocked. More filters or larger filters does not make up for the wrong fish (size or numbers). There is no such thing as "overfiltration" in a beneficial sense; over filtration may harm the fish if it means too much water movement for example. But the substrate is the primary bacteria bed and this is more important.

Plants do help, obviously...but not enough to handle improperly stocked fish. Floating plants are the best for water quality, plus they provide shade.

I mentioned shoaling species need numbers...a larger group will usually have less impact on the biological system than will too few. Fish in insufficient numbers will be under more stress, impacting the system, whereas a few more might have less stress thus less impact. Stress causes fish to react and this is where the system can be impacted.

EDIT. You decisionto return the Serpae is wise...once these settle, they will probably go after the rams. This is a very aggressive species, and it needs 12+ in their own 30g tank as minimum.

 

[PheonixKingZ]

Very informative @Byron.

 

[Metalhead88]

Just want to throw it out there, I have a group of 15 serpea tetras in my 55. I didn't realize that they were known to be such terrors when I got them. I have not had the same experience as the above posts. My serpea tetras do not bother the rams or corys in the tank at all. IDK if I'm just lucky, but this has been my only experience with these fish and it's been a good one. That tank was re-stocked since July 2019. And as always, I closely monitor behavior daily. I've been keeping cichlids for years and I've learned that things can be fine one day, and it could be a warzone the next.

One thing I always do and it's easier to accomplish in larger tanks is that I keep a sponge filter in every tank. It's a nice supplement to your "real" filtration, and it's impossible to miss it if it stops running. Easy, cheap, and reliable..... and above all it can be removed to put in a hospital or quarantine tank.

 

[Byron]

Just want to throw it out there, I have a group of 15 serpea tetras in my 55. I didn't realize that they were known to be such terrors when I got them. I have not had the same experience as the above posts. My serpea tetras do not bother the rams or corys in the tank at all. IDK if I'm just lucky, but this has been my only experience with these fish and it's been a good one. That tank was re-stocked since July 2019. And as always, I closely monitor behavior daily. I've been keeping cichlids for years and I've learned that things can be fine one day, and it could be a warzone the next.

There is a reason this works...first you have 15 in the shoal, and second the tank is large enough to have other fish species.

Most problems with fish like the Serpae Tetra, Tiger Barb, etc are because the tank is not adequate, and/or the group is not large enough. A group of 12+ in a 30g tank is the minimum for these species, but with more spacious tanks they can be suitable. One still has to be careful with tankmates, but the idea behind the larger group is to contain the fin nipping within the species. But when these fish are "crowded" in tanks less than 30g and with fewer numbers, it causes stress and aggression increases.

 

[kribensis12]

Serpae's were returned yesterday - I exchanged them for a few more plants. The fish all look AMAZING today - extremely active and very healthy.

Looks like the water change, fixed filter and removed Serpae's did a world of wonders!

I really appreciate everyone's advice and information!

 

[Retired Viking]

Good luck and enjoy your fish