Gaping Mouth, swimming oddly.

[Retired Viking]

I totally agree with you that plants improve water quality, but I would still advise the water change. Good luck with your tank.

 

[kribensis12]

@Retired Viking I'm not intending to argue - so please forgive me. I have no opposition to doing things that have a proven effect and I personally have not seen any data that shows much of an effect unless someone is trying to grow out fish (due to growth hormone build up; even then, I'm not entirely sure on the evidence) and simulating spawning events with a lot of fresh water.

Would you be able to point me towards literature that has convinced you otherwise?

Any clue as to what is going on with my tetras?

 

[Metalhead88]

You used both bottles for each kit when you tested?

Nitrates should be below 20ppm at all times. That is absolute max. Some people may argue that 10 or 15 is more suitable.

If you have 40ppm, your nitrates are very high.

Fish have never been hurt by clean water.

I do 75% or more on my water changes once per week.

 

[PheonixKingZ]

There is no way you did the tests correctly if the solution is clear. Go back and try it again and this time, follow the instructions exactly. I had a person that I was helping a few days ago that had this same problem with his test kit. I recommend he try it again and it worked! Just try it again. What harm can it do?

 

[Metalhead88]

There is no way you did the tests correctly if the solution is clear. Go back and try it again and this time, follow the instructions exactly. I had a person that I was helping a few days ago that had this same problem with his test kit. I recommend he try it again and it worked! Just try it again. What harm can it do?

I must agree. Remember there is Ammonia test bottle #1 and Ammonia test bottle #2. Same goes for nitrate.

 

[kribensis12]

I did use both bottles, or I thought I did. I did find it very odd (as originally stated) that it was clear. I'll be happy to do it again in a bit, @PheonixKingZ .

Over the years, the guidelines for Nitrates that I have seen (include the API, which I have in front of me) have said 40 ppm or less is recommended. Now @Metalhead88 you are saying "40 ppm is very high". What scale do you use to determine "very high"? In addition, oddly enough, the nitrate test says I'm riding around 0 which seems odd to me since it's been a week since my last water change. I was expecting 20-30 ppm.

Again, I'm certainly willing to do things differently - but not if there is no data to show it is actually helpful.

 

[Essjay]

Studies have shown that nitrate above 20 ppm impacts fish. I think Byron may have a link to the study.

 

[kribensis12]

Studies have shown that nitrate above 20 ppm impacts fish. I think Byron may have a link to the study.

I would be really interested to see that article! So for the immediate problem, if my Nitrate's and Nitrite's don't seem to be a problem (assuming ammonia is 0), what is likely to be wrong with the tetra? Not a single other fish in the tank shows any symptoms.

 

[Byron]

I did use both bottles, or I thought I did. I did find it very odd (as originally stated) that it was clear. I'll be happy to do it again in a bit, @PheonixKingZ .

Over the years, the guidelines for Nitrates that I have seen (include the API, which I have in front of me) have said 40 ppm or less is recommended. Now @Metalhead88 you are saying "40 ppm is very high". What scale do you use to determine "very high"? In addition, oddly enough, the nitrate test says I'm riding around 0 which seems odd to me since it's been a week since my last water change. I was expecting 20-30 ppm.

Again, I'm certainly willing to do things differently - but not if there is no data to show it is actually helpful.

When I had my first aquarium in the early 1960's, most of my fish--well, all of them actually--rarely lived a year. We had no internet, few books on fish (and too expensive for a school child) and it was just accepted that fish didn't live long. I got back into the hobby in the 1980's and found a lot had changed. And there was so much I never knew. In the past decade I have been retired and had the time to research into this. Science has moved forward a lot.

Nothing is more important than water changes for healthy fish. I change 60-70% of the tank volume once each week without fail, and have been doing this for over 20 years now. Clean water is the key to fish health. I think one of the best proofs is the fact that every knowledgeable biologist and ichthyologist in this hobby will advise this. I have read articles that calculate the math behind this. But there is more: water in an aquarium deteriorates quite rapidly. Fish take in water via osmosis through every cell, continually. This water is processed by the kidneys, and urinated back into the tank. The average smallest tetra will urinate 30% of its body weight every day. The tank water quickly becomes old stale water. There are other pollutants too. Fish release chemical signals, pheromones and allomones, that allow them to communicate; these remain in the tank until the water is removed, as no filter nor plants can handle them. As they accumulate, they stress fish more and more. As does the increase in "stale" water itself. Then there are the liquid pollutants occurring from the breakdown of organics (fish excrement primarily); these too cannot be removed by any filter. All of this not only affects the fish's physiology, it also causes stress. And stress is the direct cause of 95% of all aquarium fish disease.

Consider also that in their natural habitat, fish do not take a second respiration "breath" in the same water; each respiration is in fresh water because of the low ratio of fish to water volume. Weekly partial water changes of at least 50% but preferably 60-70% come as close as we can to this, though still far removed. No amount of filtration can replace water changes. Any balanced aquarium should be able to function without a filter. But not without water changes.

Nitrates. Scientific studies on the affect of nitrates have largely been concerned with farm food fish. I have read some of these, and the few concerned with aquarium fish. We now know that all fish are poisoned by nitrates; but unlike ammonia and nitrite poisoning which is rapid, nitrates are slower to actually kill the fish. But they continually weaken the fish, affecting its physiology and metabolism, immune system, causing stress...all negative things leading to reduced health and death in time. The level of nitrate, the length of the exposure, and the individual species, all factor in, but one thing is certain: in time nitrate will kill fish. Death may likely come from other things, due to the fish having been weakened by the nitrates.

There are professional ichthyologists and biologists and microbiologists contributing to this hobby. Dr. Neale Monks is one of the most respected, and when he writes about fish everyone should take notice. I know Neale personally online, and have gone to him a few times with my own problems and questions. On nitrates, he told me that 20 ppm was the upper limit, and keeping nitrate as far below this as possible would inevitably improve the fish's health. Cichlids, thought a pretty tough fish, are now known to be seriously impacted by nitrate at 20 ppm; over on the cichlid site they are now suggesting that problems like hole in the head and Malawi bloat may have high nitrates behind them. Much more scientific study is needed, but all now agree that keeping nitrates as low as possible will always improve fish health long-term.

Another thing I have learned is the incredible unique complexity of fish physiology. Fish unlike any terrestrial animals have an incredibly involved physiology that is tied to every aspect of their environment because it is aquatic. Every substance in the water is pulled into the fish's bloodstream; water parameters are in a very narrow range and each freshwater species has evolved to function in this range and experiences varying levels of difficulty if it changes. An aquarium is an artificial environment, but nonetheless every aspect of life within the tank is governed solely by natural processes including fish biology, water chemistry, and aquatic microbiology.

I have so much reference material accumulated that it takes me some time to dig through for this or that, but I will have a dig later on, and post (if I remember...at 70 I do tend to forget now and then, or as I like to think of it, just get side-tracked ).

 

[kribensis12]

Thanks - Byron. That is very helpful!

So it seems that one of two things are happening - from what I can ascertain.

1. Somehow this is water related (though all tests indicate very normal ranges, except ammonia - need to get that tested asap).

2. No one else seems to know what is going on? Almost all recent posts have been discussing water quality (which is great, but not helpful in this specific instance if the condition itself is not related to water quality).

Can someone please help?

 

[Byron]

Thanks - Byron. That is very helpful!

So it seems that one of two things are happening - from what I can ascertain.

1. Somehow this is water related (though all tests indicate very normal ranges, except ammonia - need to get that tested asap).

2. No one else seems to know what is going on? Almost all recent posts have been discussing water quality (which is great, but not helpful in this specific instance if the condition itself is not related to water quality).

Can someone please help?

Diagnosing fish problems is very difficult. I stay out of "disease" threads simply because I have no where near the experience (fortunately) nor the knowledge to diagnose and recommend treatment. I do however jump in with suggestions to avoid such problems, as I have done previously and now again.

I can say with a fairly certain degree of assurance that the over-stocking, and inappropriate stocking, inadequate water changes, all leading to the detrimental water issues, is likely behind whatever this is. Prevention in this hobby is always safer and better. It is difficult to put into words, but I have researched fish physiology a lot over the past few years, and I am still amazed at the way fish are tied to their aquatic environment. This is a very big factor.

However, another possibility is fish that are weakened by genetic issues. This is particularly prevalent in commercially-raised (as opposed to wild caught) fish. And Serpae Tetras have been raised commercially for several decades now.

We also do not know how you acclimated the fish, or the water conditions/parameters between store water and your tank water. Fish cannot adapt or acclimate rapidly, and in some senses not at all. They manage at best if conditions are not to their preference, and this again weakens them still more, causing more stress.

 

[seangee]

This does sound like illness or injury. Not enough info for a diagnosis I'm afraid.

However my experience with serpaes is that they are viscious little ****s. People usually recommend a large group (min 12) in a big space with lots of hiding spaces. Well I bought 12 for my 55G and within a week I took them back for credit because they were trying to kill everything in the tank. It may be that they are simply being normal and attacking each other.

 

[Retired Viking]

The fish were recently bought from the LFS where they have very hard water and introduce into your tank where you have soften the water with RO could be an issue depending on what steps you took to introduce them to the soft water or as @seangee stated that from his experience is that they are just vicious fish. Sorry for all the questions but most of the time problems are water related or a fish issue where fish are fighting. As @Byron pointed out the way they breed fish now they seem weaker compared to what they were like many years ago when I first started fish keeping you just have to look at neon tetras. They seem weaker with commercial breeding now then when they were caught in the wild.

 

[kribensis12]

Thank you for your feedback, Byron.

What would your recommended stocking rule for aquariums? I am pushing the "1 inch per gallon" rule - which to me seems acceptable because:
1. The tank is over-filtered - which means that there is a lot of beneficial bacteria & good gaseous exchange
2. The tank is planted, which has a positive effect on the aquarium as a whole
3. The specific fish that I am keeping are occupy very different parts of the aquarium. The danios never leave the first 3 inches of the aquarium, the guppies are in the same boat. The Rams rarely leave the bottom 1/3 (unless it's time to eat) and the tetra's spend most of their made mid-level.

Regarding water parameters (pH, kH & gH), I understand that for some fish the water parameters are less than ideal - this is typical for any community tank. I know that community tanks can get a bad rep for this - I'm OK with that. The community style is mostly for my 3 year old son; I'd much rather do a biotype. (and larger!).

So, for someone who has more experience with illness - does the above symptoms (gaping mouth, odd swimming, being a loner and having another of the same type pass w/o symptoms) indicate a water issue (beyond the traditional Nitrates etc.) or does it seem likely that there could be an illness?

If it's an illness I definitely want to treat it - if it's a water issue, I'm hoping more frequent water changes will help solve it; but if it's medical I'd rather know sooner than later.


******* I now see new posts. I may just return them. I have never been much of a tetra person and I'd rather not deal with their drama. If anyone in the tank should have an attitude's its the Rams and they don't care whatsoever about sharing their space.

 

[PheonixKingZ]

Yes, as I said, any Nitrate over 20ppm can be deadly to fish.