fluval or prime

[grayRavenn]

opinions requested.....
I have always used fluval cycle and waste control products, and api stress guard. recently I switched to seachem Prime, stability and stressguard. I have to order these guys again, and I'm on the fence about which to order. does anyone else have any preferences?

 

[seangee]

I don't use bacterial or (so called) "stress" supplements because I don't believe there is any need.

I use to use Prime and had no issues, some people don't like it. These days I use filtered water so don't put anything in it. My main concern would be that what I use deals with chlorine / chloramine and heavy metals and does not do anything else. E.g. there is no need to put aloe vera into my tank, which means into my fish.

 

[Essjay]

I use API Tap Water Conditioner as that contains only thiosulphate to remove chlorine and EDTA to bind metals. I use nothing else in my tanks.

Seachem won't say what's in Prime but the fact they they claim it does so many things means it's a chemical soup. (Prime's safety data sheet states it contains "water and other ingredients, the identity and amounts of which are trade secrets")
Stability is a bacterial supplement.
Stressguard is a "slime coat protection" product which contains "a non-amine based water soluble polymer" .

Fluval Cycle is a bacteria 'enhancer', not needed once the tank is cycled
If the Fluval waste control is the product now called Biological Aquarium Cleaner, that's not needed either. There are plenty bacteria in a mature tank that do the job for free.
The API product - do you mean Stress Coat or Stress Zyme? Stress Zyme is an aquarium 'cleaner' which is not needed as the tank should already have the necessary bacteria. Stress Coat is a dechlorinator which contains aloe vera. It is now known that aloe vera is not a good thing to add to a fish tank, it coats the gills.

Everything we add to the tank ends up inside the fish. We should aim to add as little as possible.
Dechlorinators are necessary to remove chloramine and chlorine (though allowing the water to stand overnight should allow chlorine to gas off). Bacterial supplements are useful during cycling but are not needed once the tank has been cycled.
Slime coat protectors are not necessary, the fish can produce their own.


All we need is a water conditioner which removes chlorine and detoxifies metals. In areas which have chloramine in the mains water, one that also detoxifies ammonia is a good idea. But preferably one that does not contain a 'slime coat enhancer'.

 

[grayRavenn]

I don't use bacterial or (so called) "stress" supplements because I don't believe there is any need.

I use to use Prime and had no issues, some people don't like it. These days I use filtered water so don't put anything in it. My main concern would be that what I use deals with chlorine / chloramine and heavy metals and does not do anything else. E.g. there is no need to put aloe vera into my tank, which means into my fish.

I have always used RO water, but my community tanks have a high bio burden, and there is a lot of sunlight coming into most of my tanks....lots of algae. I have a green machine on most of my tanks for this but the fluval waste control helps, overfeeding my guys would probably help a lot more. I do water changes with mega vacuuming weekly, scrub down the glass sides, and every three - four weeks I strip the fake plants and décor to remove the algae. my filters are hanging filters, the arthritis in my fingers makes it hard to use a cannister so their only purpose is to remove yucky stuff from the tank, no bacterial help at all. the fluval cycle helps to replace the nitrifying bacteria I remove. you're right about the stress coat and the stability, don't really need them, thanks.

 

[seangee]

so their only purpose is to remove yucky stuff from the tank, no bacterial help at all. the fluval cycle helps to replace the nitrifying bacteria I remove.

If you have sponge in them it is surprisingly good as a biological filter. It may just be worth getting yourself an ammonia test kit to confirm that the need for "bio media" or bacterial supplements is just marketing hype.

every three - four weeks I strip the fake plants and décor to remove the algae.

Do you have live plants as well? I mostly have floating plants, currently frogbit and salvania but I change it up occasionaly, because I don't have the patience for gardening. As the light increases in summer I add more fertiliser to balance it and the plants grow quicker, leaving no surplus nutrients or light for the algae. Its actually quite rare to get alage in the tank. I do get caught out every once in a while but usually I only clean the front glass every 2 or 3 weeks and leave the other 3 sides for the fish.

That will also reduce the need for bacteria. Right now I am thinning out my floating plants in the living room 3-4 times a week they are growing so fast. No algae though unless you look really closely. Oh and a lot of people would call my tanks overstocked

 

[Byron]

Essjay really covered the topic very well. Manufacturers promote the products they manufacture as somehow necessary, and that is how they make their money. Even the most reputable manufacturers, like Seachem and API--and I use some products from these two--market some products that have absolutely no place in an aquarium with fish.

Fish take in water through their cells via osmosis, and via the gills. Water is the most solvent liquid on the planet, picking up everything it comes into contact with that can be taken up. That is why freshwater across the planet is so different in chemistry (water parameters) from region to region. So every substance we add to the tank water is going to get inside the fish, in their bloodstream and internal organs and into the gills. None of these products are beneficial to the fish itself, and they cause problems that may be very minor but can easily become major.

Clean fresh water is all fish really need. A good conditioner to deal with chlorine/chloramine is necessary, but beyond this, little else is--if we want healthy fish. I agree with essjay's remarks on various products.

A regular (once a week minimum) significant (50-65% of the tank volume) partial water change will do more for your fish's health than any of these products (aside from the dechlorinator obviously). I use the API Tap Water Conditioner because it is the most highly concentrated (meaning, you need very little by comparison to all others including Prime) and it only deals with chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals. I use Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium to provide essential nutrients missing in my water, but I use this minimally. Nothing else.

 

[grayRavenn]

If you have sponge in them it is surprisingly good as a biological filter. It may just be worth getting yourself an ammonia test kit to confirm that the need for "bio media" or bacterial supplements is just marketing hype.

Do you have live plants as well? I mostly have floating plants, currently frogbit and salvania but I change it up occasionaly, because I don't have the patience for gardening. As the light increases in summer I add more fertiliser to balance it and the plants grow quicker, leaving no surplus nutrients or light for the algae. Its actually quite rare to get alage in the tank. I do get caught out every once in a while but usually I only clean the front glass every 2 or 3 weeks and leave the other 3 sides for the fish.

That will also reduce the need for bacteria. Right now I am thinning out my floating plants in the living room 3-4 times a week they are growing so fast. No algae though unless you look really closely. Oh and a lot of poeple would call my tanks overstocked

I have the API master kit, test the water weekly and test the RO water I put in before I change it. haven't had to worry too much with ammonia, but my nitrites sometimes spike, this is why I use the fluval waste management. I don't have too many live plants, just a few spotty ones. tried a planted tank once, but I am always in my tanks and this pisses off the plants.....too much work. I don't mind some algae, makes the tanks "softer and more real", but every 2-3 water changes, I need to un-algae the tank. today is one of those days for the 55 gallon. ammonia: 0, nitrates; 5-10ppm, and nitrites; 0 (yeah). going to remove some of the wood and the plants, rinsing the algae off and re-patriating them into the tank.

 

[grayRavenn]

Essjay really covered the topic very well. Manufacturers promote the products they manufacture as somehow necessary, and that is how they make their money. Even the most reputable manufacturers, like Seachem and API--and I use some products from these two--market some products that have absolutely no place in an aquarium with fish.

Fish take in water through their cells via osmosis, and via the gills. Water is the most solvent liquid on the planet, picking up everything it comes into contact with that can be taken up. That is why freshwater across the planet is so different in chemistry (water parameters) from region to region. So every substance we add to the tank water is going to get inside the fish, in their bloodstream and internal organs and into the gills. None of these products are beneficial to the fish itself, and they cause problems that may be very minor but can easily become major.

Clean fresh water is all fish really need. A good conditioner to deal with chlorine/chloramine is necessary, but beyond this, little else is--if we want healthy fish. I agree with essjay's remarks on various products.

A regular (once a week minimum) significant (50-65% of the tank volume) partial water change will do more for your fish's health than any of these products (aside from the dechlorinator obviously). I use the API Tap Water Conditioner because it is the most highly concentrated (meaning, you need very little by comparison to all others including Prime) and it only deals with chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals. I use Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium to provide essential nutrients missing in my water, but I use this minimally. Nothing else.

don't use a dechlorinator, I use RO water, always have...don't like chemicals in my tank either. I do 30% water changes every week, vacuuming like a crazy person, and my parameters are always good...but I do add fluval cycle and waste management when I change my 55, 40, and 30 gallon. these tanks have large bioloads, and adding nitrifying bacteria I think does help.

 

[Byron]

don't use a dechlorinator, I use RO water, always have...don't like chemicals in my tank either. I do 30% water changes every week, vacuuming like a crazy person, and my parameters are always good...but I do add fluval cycle and waste management when I change my 55, 40, and 30 gallon. these tanks have large bioloads, and adding nitrifying bacteria I think does help.

No, this does not help, it is harming the fish if it is doing anything.

You mention nitrite spikes...did you mean nitrite, or nitrate? Nitrite must never be above zero or you have a serious issue. Nitrates should be consistent over months; if not, then you have other issues. Nitrates do harm fish, more slowly than ammonia or nitrite, but the higher the nitrate the more problems for fish.

I don't know the stocking levels in the various tanks, but a 30% partial water is not sufficient even in minimally-stocked tanks. I change 60-70% of the tank volume once each week. I have never had ammonia or nitrite above zero, and nitrates are in the 0-5 ppm range. And some of my tanks are well stocked, and all have live plants even if just substantial floating plants. Stability is the goal, and using products to replace necessary maintenance will not work for the benefit of the system or the fish.

Almost forgot...welcome to TFF.

 

[seangee]

When I say floating I mean it

This is a blackwater tank and the vals are almost all I have in the bottom, but the top is completely covered over. To get it like that I just chucked a small handfull of plants in the top and feed with Seachem Flourish Comprehensive Supplement at half the recommended dosage. Took about a month to get from a few little plants to completely covered over. Now I just throw plants out at regular intervals

 

[grayRavenn]

.

No, this does not help, it is harming the fish if it is doing anything.

You mention nitrite spikes...did you mean nitrite, or nitrate? Nitrite must never be above zero or you have a serious issue. Nitrates should be consistent over months; if not, then you have other issues. Nitrates do harm fish, more slowly than ammonia or nitrite, but the higher the nitrate the more problems for fish.

I don't know the stocking levels in the various tanks, but a 30% partial water is not sufficient even in minimally-stocked tanks. I change 60-70% of the tank volume once each week. I have never had ammonia or nitrite above zero, and nitrates are in the 0-5 ppm range. And some of my tanks are well stocked, and all have live plants even if just substantial floating plants. Stability is the goal, and using products to replace necessary maintenance will not work for the benefit of the system or the fish.

Almost forgot...welcome to TFF.

thanks for the welcome. I enjoy the fishy company!
55 has 4 large angels, 8 red serpe tetras, two large red-cheek shark tetras, 4 black neon tetras, 6 threadfins, a medium picctus, 5 corys , 1 betta, and a 6 year old bushynose pleco. this tank has been run this way for 6 years, have had a few tetra deaths here and there, but this tank is healthy and the fish are thriving. the occasional spike of nitrites, nitrites have spiked when I don't change the tank for 10+ days...was really sick. even then, only lost a threadfin...it was 4 years old! my tanks are stable, all 5 of them, as well as my 5 betta tanks. let me walk that back...one tank is in trouble.
however, maybe your insight can help, I am heartbroken, I just lost a 6 year old male golden angel. all tank parameters 0, just changed the tank 2 days earlier. he was fine the night before, ate chased champagne (his lifelong girlfriend) around the tank as usual...the next morning, he was standing on his head. went to work, and when I got home he was still headstanding, next am I euthanized him. his belly was bloated, he was producing no real feces, just clear material. going up to work, have my doc open him up...I can't....maybe send stuff into the lab. one thing that worries me is that his fins, in the space of 12 hours had frayed off....ugh. the female so far, is in good shape, ate breakfast, swimming ok, fins all normal, normal stools. stripped tank of everything, river rock substrate, plants, increased temp and added airstone. 75% waterchange last night and did another one today. any ideas?

 

[Back in the fold]

Seangee, that picture of your black water tank is great. That is what I see in my mind when I think of one.

 

[Byron]

First thing, let me say that I rarely comment on disease issues aside from offering general advice. I have been fortunate in my 30 years in the hobby never to have had more than a couple of issues, and I was/am lucky to be able to turn to professional biologists/microbiologists I know online for advice. Prevention is always preferable to reacting once a problem presents itself, so my comments following are in the scope of preventing and why some things can lead to disease.

Stress is directly responsible for about 95% of all fish disease issues. So avoiding stress, or keeping it minimal, goes a long way to healthy fish as they are then better able to fight off this and that. Stress occurs from many things, from water parameters, aquascape, numbers of a species, other species, lighting, water currents--any environmental factor in fact that is not what the fish "expects" will cause stress.

The frayed fins is without much doubt due to fish eating them. You have Serpae Tetras, and this is a species notorious for fin nipping. It should never be combined with sedate fish like angelfish. Now I realize this tank has been running for six years...but that does not mean it has been "working" with respect to the fish. Only a fish living in the tank could tell us this, and that being impossible (until it becomes so severe they die) we can only rely on our research and understanding of species. And never putting these two species together is a significant issue.

Related is the pictus; this fish is active at night, and this is stressful to angelfish and many others for that matter. Pictus is also a shoaling species, and needs a group of five (or more). Peaceful but it is predatory and as it matures it will eat small fish. Should be kept in a small group of at least 5; single fish may pine away. Tankmates should not include sedate fish like angels, discus, gourami and even cichlids as these will be pestered by the nocturnal habits of this catfish, nor nippy fish like barbs.

It is logical to assume that the stress from just the above over time wore down the angelfish, weakening it so it became more susceptible to pathogens. The minimal water changes also affect all of this. If nitrates rise at all, it is a sign that water changes are probably inadequate, or combined with other organic issues (substrate, filter cleaning, fish load, fish feeding). My tanks are in the 0-5 ppm range for nitrate, and have been for over ten years now. I don't test regularly now (I did, every week on the day prior to the weekly water change, for several months, then only spot checks), because I don't have to; my routine has not changed in all these years, and I know that the nitrates are this low and also the pH remains the same in the respective tank. That is stability.

Fish release pheromones and allomones, chemical signals other fish read. Even if there is no visible physical interaction, the fish may well be "thinking" it, and that is high stress. Another reason for more substantial water changes is to reduce these substances, something no filter can achieve.

Hope this helps.

 

[grayRavenn]

First thing, let me say that I rarely comment on disease issues aside from offering general advice. I have been fortunate in my 30 years in the hobby never to have had more than a couple of issues, and I was/am lucky to be able to turn to professional biologists/microbiologists I know online for advice. Prevention is always preferable to reacting once a problem presents itself, so my comments following are in the scope of preventing and why some things can lead to disease.

Stress is directly responsible for about 95% of all fish disease issues. So avoiding stress, or keeping it minimal, goes a long way to healthy fish as they are then better able to fight of this and that. Stress occurs from many things, from water parameters, aquascape, numbers of a species, other species, lighting, water currents--any environmental factor in fact that is not what the fish "expects" will cause stress.

The frayed fins is without much doubt due to fish eating them. You have Serpae Tetras, and this is a species notorious for fin nipping. It should never be combined with sedate fish like angelfish. Now I realize this tank has been running for six years...but that does not mean it has been "working" with respect to the fish. Only a fish living in the tank could tell us this, and that being impossible (until it becomes so severe they die) we can only rely on our research and understanding of species. And never putting these two species together is a significant issue.

Related is the pictus; this fish is active at night, and this is stressful to angelfish and many others for that matter. Pictus is also a shoaling species, and needs a group of five (or more). Peaceful but it is predatory and as it matures it will eat small fish. Should be kept in a small group of at least 5; single fish may pine away. Tankmates should not include sedate fish like angels, discus, gourami and even cichlids as these will be pestered by the nocturnal habits of this catfish, nor nippy fish like barbs.

It is logical to assume that the stress from just the above over time wore down the angelfish, weakening it so it became more susceptible to pathogens. The minimal water changes also affect all of this. If nitrates rise at all, it is a sign that water changes are probably inadequate, or combined with other organic issues (substrate, filter cleaning, fish load, fish feeding). My tanks are in the 0-5 ppm range for nitrate, and have been for over ten years now. I don't test regularly now (I did, every week on the day prior to the weekly water change, for several months, then only spot checks), because I don't have to; my routine has not changed in all these years, and I know that the nitrates are this low and also the pH remains the same in the respective tank. That is stability.


Fish release pheromones and allomones, chemical signals other fish read. Even if there is no visible physical interaction, the fish may well be "thinking" it, and that is high stress. Another reason for more substantial water changes is to reduce these substances, something no filter can achieve.

Hope this helps.

sorry, I was not very clear. but first let me say, I do test every water change, both the tanks and the water I am adding, ALWAYS RO water, and always from the same two dispensers. the 55 with all those critters is fine, the tank with the golden is a 30 gallon, and aside from a b.nose pleco and two corys, they are the only two in the tank. I call them the pirahanas….have had these two 6 years, they have had 5 litters, all raised by those two parents, and I've sold 15-18 dime-sized babies from each litter...clutch....they are not stressed. they are fat (this maybe the problem) and happy, never off feed a day in their life. I do not feed live food....something acute happened to this fish. look at his fins (helios is the one in the front). been raising fish since I was 12, im now 60, used to breed angels, I love this breed. I have been a veterinary nurse for over 40 years and my docs have tanks too, although they have gone to the dark side....salt water. this fish was fine, he became acutely bloated looking (his scales are not pine coned) at some point passed some white/clear feces. he was not stressed when he was face down, no increased respiration and his gills were not bloody/red. there are no marks on his body other than really really frayed fins.

 

[grayRavenn]

sorry, I was not very clear. but first let me say, I do test every water change, both the tanks and the water I am adding, ALWAYS RO water, and always from the same two dispensers. the 55 with all those critters is fine, the tank with the golden is a 30 gallon, and aside from a b.nose pleco and two corys, they are the only two in the tank. I call them the pirahanas….have had these two 6 years, they have had 5 litters, all raised by those two parents, and I've sold 15-18 dime-sized babies from each litter...clutch....they are not stressed. they are fat (this maybe the problem) and happy, never off feed a day in their life. I do not feed live food....something acute happened to this fish. look at his fins (helios is the one in the front). been raising fish since I was 12, im now 60, used to breed angels, I love this breed. I have been a veterinary nurse for over 40 years and my docs have tanks too, although they have gone to the dark side....salt water. this fish was fine, he became acutely bloated looking (his scales are not pine coned) at some point passed some white/clear feces. he was not stressed when he was face down, no increased respiration and his gills were not bloody/red. there are no marks on his body other than really really frayed fins.