Fishless Cycle...

[OldMan47]

You are doing just fine in my opinion Taffy.
By dosing regularly you are proving that the results you see are more than coincidental. To me it means that it will be time to move forward.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

Thank you oldman47... appreciated.

Day 18- Amm=0, NI=0, PH=7.6 (re-dosed to 4ppm)...12 hrs later- Amm=0, NI=0, PH=7.6 (re-dosed to 2ppm overnight)
Day 19- Amm=0, NI=0, PH=7.6 (re-dosed to 4ppm)...12 hrs later- Amm=0, NI=0, PH=7.6 (re-dosed to 2ppm overnight)
Day 20- Amm=0, NI=0, PH=7.6 (re-dosed to 4ppm).

,,and that is as far as today (saturday)... Going upto Cardiff today to watch England stuff Wlaes in the football, so i'm expecting some more 'Double Zeros' when i test this evening...

Fish day could now well be next wednesday (March 30th), so i shall use the next few days to finally decide which fish to go for first.

Regards,
Terry.

 

[waterdrop]

Thank you oldman47... appreciated.

Day 18- Amm=0, NI=0, PH=7.6 (re-dosed to 4ppm)...12 hrs later- Amm=0, NI=0, PH=7.6 (re-dosed to 2ppm overnight)
Day 19- Amm=0, NI=0, PH=7.6 (re-dosed to 4ppm)...12 hrs later- Amm=0, NI=0, PH=7.6 (re-dosed to 2ppm overnight)
Day 20- Amm=0, NI=0, PH=7.6 (re-dosed to 4ppm).

,,and that is as far as today (saturday)... Going upto Cardiff today to watch England stuff Wlaes in the football, so i'm expecting some more 'Double Zeros' when i test this evening...

Fish day could now well be next wednesday (March 30th), so i shall use the next few days to finally decide which fish to go for first.

Regards,
Terry.

So three things of interest to me here:
1) As OM47 said, the very fact that you are being very regular in your dosing schedule helps show that the results you read are not coming from coincidence. Regularity of actions in fishless cycling always seems to help interpretation of results in fishless cycling.

2) By dosing at 4ppm and then additionally dosing 2ppm more at 12 hours you are effectively asking your bacteria to process 6ppm within 24 hours. This is essentially creating a more stringent qualifying week than the 12-hour/5ppm one we usually describe (member doresy has also supported a more stringent guideline of 8-hour/5ppm finalizing) so I suspect the most likely outcome would be no problem after the big water change and fish. The idea of "pulsing," which is where the colonies are purposely exposed to a period of zero ppm ammonia on just as regular a basis as they are exposed to a peak 4-5ppm exposure is one that oldman47 and I kicked around some based on either scientific articles or product documentation in the WWTP field/industry, where they raise these same types of bacteria as a profession. We never really followed through with definitive findings (article links or finding professors or wwtp plant employees to discuss it with) but I've kept it alive as a promising line of inquiry that might further our understanding of the best way to raise these bacteria in the quickest and highest quality manner. I mention this just so that people won't think I'm just a complete idiot spouting stuff about "pulsing."

3) I'd also like to mention (to Taffy Apple in particular) that I really like your "notation" method up there of putting the 24-hour and 12-hour result listings on a single line! That's the first time I've seen someone do that and I was struck by how I could instantly understand exactly what you'd been doing (which is the point of these little logs we all post to each other as members, so I'm always on the watch for the very best fishless cycling log notation techniques.) You get a gold star in my book! (even if I'm at odds with the extra 2ppm being dosed )

~~waterdrop~~
(whew! I think I'll relax and go do my weekly water change after this. )

 

[The Taffy Apple]

As always WD, i enjoyed reading your last reply with my cuppa !

I haven't seen anyone include both 12 and 24 hr test results in the same line, so i thought i'd include them (mainly for my benefit, as i can quickly scroll through in my log-book to a particular date and time).

My filter bacteria are now preocessing 2ppm of Ammonia within 3/4 hours, and the 4ppm dose is comfortably turning bright yellow and 'Disney blue' comfortably within 6/7 hours.

'Fish Day' could well be tomorrow should i be able to borrow the car for a few hours. Failing that i am quite content to continue with my 'Qualifying Week' for another few days, W/C's should my NitrAte get too high.


regards,
Terry.

 

[KittyKat]

Keep us posted, new fish are exciting *says the woman who's been planning stocking all weekend*

 

[The Taffy Apple]

Indeed i shall Kittykat
I am working nights tonight, so although i will not have any access to t'internet, i intend to continue using this time to finally decide on which type of Neons to get 1st, but it may simply be down to what stock he has in his shop tomorrow afternoon!

What type of fish are you looking at? For which tank?

Terry.

 

[KittyKat]

I'm back into nano tanks now, so looking at everything which maxes out at 30mm really, I've come up with about 10 odd commonly available species.. it's now a matter to see what quality the LFS can get them in at, and what the origin is. For example, I would take most only take if they were tank bred, as they are close to extinction in the wild, and some can only be gotten from wild stock, so depends on how well they have traveled and how they eat..

 

[The Taffy Apple]

Sounds grea. What about Chillia Rasbora? I love watching mine in my 30L tank, they seem to grow in confidence each week, even taking the food from the mouth of the Male Endler Guppy i have in there!

Quick Update;

I am continuing my fishless cycle until i have the time to properly purchase my fish..i have the opportunity to visit a local 'chain store' of pets for my home (!) but i would rather take the time and effort to visit this cracking little LFS i have found in the next town..

Regards,
Terry.

 

[The Taffy Apple]

Quick Update-

Each day since has seen what you would expect for a Qualifying Week.

I have reduced my dosing down to 2ppm twice a day now, reason being that fish day (friday!!) will only allow me 8-10 either Black Neon/Black Widow, this being that he is specifically keeping them out the back in his quarantine tank for me- "away from any idiot that taps the glass!", end quote. I am thinking that dosing upto 4ppm constantly will produce way too many Bacs unless i fully stock in one go, which i can't.

I had a small drop of 0.2 PH overnight, should it drop again tomorrow (which i believe it might) then a partial W/C will be on the cards. NitrAte now approaching a darker than 80ppm, 2 birds with one stone.

Regards,
Terry.

 

[waterdrop]

enjoyed that one.. The whole point of fishless cycling is to "produce too many Bacs!" What you're trying to do is produce so many extra that the colonies are robust enough that when you suddenly switch over from direct dosed ammonia to the much smaller natural stream of ammonia sources, the die-back will not then drop below what is needed for the given bioload of the first stocking. The bacterial colony changes are not linear. Once the ammonia source is changed, they will not necessarily just ease back to ideal.. instead some of them begin to die, causing the biofilms to deteriorate and other bacteria to die and if you saw a graph of colony size it would dip -below- and then come back up to where you want it to be to match your bioload. When we get beginners who give up on their fishless cycle at the very first double-zero this is what we see happen. Their colony size dips below and they get ammonia and/or nitrite spikes from the first stocking.

Of course Terry, this will not happen to you because you've paid attention to the main thing, that of having patience and getting through a qualifying week. It's really lots of verifying/qualifying time that is the better indicator I believe, rather than the last couple of days of dosing level. It's just the principle I wanted to communicate, as there are always others reading this.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[The Taffy Apple]

Highly appreciated WD, thank you very much.

Ahh, ok. So my final bacteria colony is governed by how long cycling is carried out and verified? I get that.

I understand it a little more the past couple of days as i am getting a feel for what happens when i add so much at such a time, maybe i am finally looking at the 'bigger picture' !?

Anyway, it's still a learning curve, one which is interesting to watch. A part of me is busting to see the right fish in there, but..

Still patient,
Terry.

 

[waterdrop]

Yes, with experience you can "feel" a good biofilter. It is just amazing how it whaks those ammonia and nitrite numbers to zero day after day in short order. And a good mature one can "come back" from problems really well.

Recently I had a scare where the maid unplugged the quarantine tank filter from the power strip in order to vacuum the room and the filter drained itself down a fair bit and couldn't auto-start itself back up when she plugged the filter back in. It sat there until we detected it gurgling that night and I was worried most of the bacteria would be dead. I re-primed it and I never saw a blip of ammonia or nitrite!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[The Taffy Apple]

we unfortunately have no maid in our house, although i HAVE warned Mrs.Apple not to play around with plugs when plugging in her Wii-Fit !!!

I have just done a 40% W/C. NitrAtes were the highest i have recorded, plus my Java Fern died over a course of 2 days.

After our tea i intend to re-test and re-dose, but at a time and amount which will allow me to monitor the results better over the next few days.

regards,
Terry.

 

[Dodders]

The bacterial colony changes are not linear. Once the ammonia source is changed, they will not necessarily just ease back to ideal.. instead some of them begin to die, causing the biofilms to deteriorate and other bacteria to die and if you saw a graph of colony size it would dip -below- and then come back up to where you want it to be to match your bioload. When we get beginners who give up on their fishless cycle at the very first double-zero this is what we see happen. Their colony size dips below and they get ammonia and/or nitrite spikes from the first stocking.

<snip> It's just the principle I wanted to communicate, as there are always others reading this.

I didn't know that, you are a mine of information Waterdrop!

 

[The Taffy Apple]

The bacterial colony changes are not linear. Once the ammonia source is changed, they will not necessarily just ease back to ideal.. instead some of them begin to die, causing the biofilms to deteriorate and other bacteria to die and if you saw a graph of colony size it would dip -below- and then come back up to where you want it to be to match your bioload. When we get beginners who give up on their fishless cycle at the very first double-zero this is what we see happen. Their colony size dips below and they get ammonia and/or nitrite spikes from the first stocking.

<snip> It's just the principle I wanted to communicate, as there are always others reading this.

I didn't know that, you are a mine of information Waterdrop!

I love putting my feet up, cup of coffee and a rolly..sitting back and reading Waterdrops replies..great work and ALWAYS interesting reads