Fish ID

[gwand]

They interbred yes. Did that occur in a lab or in the wild?
Species interbreed in the wild. That's not a forced, man made creation.

I basically agree with you on this issue. But occasionally a man made hybrid has utilitarian significance. The mule, for example, aided westward expansion across the Rockies. And they played an important role in agriculture.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

I basically agree with you on this issue. But occasionally a man made hybrid has utilitarian significance. The mule, for example, aided westward expansion across the Rockies. And they played an important role in agriculture.

I agree. I see the value in that, they are domesticated animals.

 

[SammyTargo]

What mentally competent person would knowingly create a hybrid?

There are many, I am not one to do that unless it is known to be successful. I really have only done that twice across species, once with two discus species which decided to pair up but that is accepted and most discus species were created through crossbreeding anyway, and between guppies and endlers. A third half-bonus was when I crossed a standard blue acara with electric blue but they just created standard blue offspring.

 

[anewbie]

I appreciate your points of view.
In my opinion there are only three reasons someone would create a hybrid.
1. Ignorance
2. Greed
3. God complex.

i think you are being overly harsh and under-thinking it. Sometimes accidents happen. Sometime there is just plain curiosity from someone who doesn't know better. Sometime this and sometime that.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

i think you are being overly harsh and under-thinking it. Sometimes accidents happen. Sometime there is just plain curiosity from someone who doesn't know better. Sometime this and sometime that.

There are some cases where it doesn't even matter. Like @SammyTargo example of discus. Unless you have wild caught who cares, they have been so cross bred and line bred. Unless you're dead set on having pure "Wattley" line discus. Guppies and mollies are another one. So crossed there is no uncrossing now.

 

[Innesfan]

There are many, I am not one to do that unless it is known to be successful. I really have only done that twice across species, once with two discus species which decided to pair up but that is accepted and most discus species were created through crossbreeding anyway, and between guppies and endlers. A third half-bonus was when I crossed a standard blue acara with electric blue but they just created standard blue offspring.

I think you may be conflating the terms 'species' with 'varieties' or 'strains'. Saying "Most discus species were created through crossbreeding..." is not so. Most Discus varieties/strains, that is, the Discus we call domestics as opposed to wild Discus, are indeed the product of selective breeding and crosses. Pigeon bloods, Turquoise, Leopards and so on are strains or varieties but not individuated species. But the three wild Discus species--and that in itself is debatable among ichthyologists-- evolved on their own evolutionary paths and are distinct species. One of them, Symphysodon tarzoo, aka 'the Green Discus', will not mate with a Discus of a different species. The other two, will mate with each other especially if no other of their own is present. In the case of S. discus, aka "Heckels," only males will mate with a non-Heckel females. Female Heckels only mate with their own.

 

[GaryE]

The fish produced by crosses interest people who like crosses. That's all. I simply don't buy them, but if someone produces them, that's their interest. They should be well labelled, but so should all fish.

@Innesfan makes a really good point. We should start by trying to understanding the idea of species versus variety. Discus are a great example, as the trade name is so well known and so many colour varieties travel under it.

I can't expect other people to love what I love. I'm all pleased by my Pelvicachromis taeniatus from Benin. The anal fin has a fantastic purple I have never seen on any of its relatives, and I've kept or seen about 20 different local colour varieties from 4 related species. You are probably thinking "whoo hoo", a purple fin...

Given a chance, I'll try to convince you this natural feature is interesting. If you're interested in hybrid guppies instead, you'll maybe breed 'dumbos' or other such morphs and consider me a nut who likes grey fish. I know the secret that unites all aquarists though. When it comes to fish, we're all nuts.

I see all hybrids as "scrap fish". I see most linebred, breeder selected fish as scrap. I see GMOed fish as scrap products. And guess what? No one cares what you or I think about this.

 

[anewbie]

Anyway there is no reason to think op fish is a hybrid and he should seek expert opinion on the species.

 

[SammyTargo]

I think you may be conflating the terms 'species' with 'varieties' or 'strains'. Saying "Most discus species were created through crossbreeding..." is not so. Most Discus varieties/strains, that is, the Discus we call domestics as opposed to wild Discus, are indeed the product of selective breeding and crosses. Pigeon bloods, Turquoise, Leopards and so on are strains or varieties but not individuated species. But the three wild Discus species--and that in itself is debatable among ichthyologists-- evolved on their own evolutionary paths and are distinct species. One of them, Symphysodon tarzoo, aka 'the Green Discus', will not mate with a Discus of a different species. The other two, will mate with each other especially if no other of their own is present. In the case of S. discus, aka "Heckels," only males will mate with a non-Heckel females. Female Heckels only mate with their own.

Makes sense. I know little about discus or their Phylogeny, and I stand corrected. I've kept discus once before and they weren't my favourite, I had pigeon bloods, red golden, leopard skins, and royal spotted greens. They all had unidentifiable crosses. Thank you for teaching me something new today!

 

[GaryE]

If we're ever going to learn about the natural species diversity within groups like Apistogramma, then we're going to have be a little more daring in our purchasing. Right now, compared to the early 1990s, there's little incentive for importers to order them, or for fishers to go looking for them. The species diversity we saw when they were popular sellers was exciting, but the centralized farm suppliers picked a few species, made varieties within them through linebreeding, and only sell that half dozen human created forms.

It's difficult for a wild fish to compete (not that the fish wants to!) with a triple red cacatuoides or fancy veijita/ agassizi etc. Those fish would look like gummi-bears in nature, and last about as long. But there was a complex of generalist, high bodied Apistos coming in in the mid nineties that had spectacular metallic greens and blues, and every shipment had a different colouration. The sales had dropped by then, and those fish are still out in nature if we haven't destroyed their habitats.

The OP's fish reminds me of them.