Filming A Fish Out Of Water

[Hawkins]

This is cruel, why would you want to do this to gain from an animals cruelty?

 

[LauraFrog]

Yikes - this clove oil suggestion has been taken WAY out of context.

My original idea was that the whole scene could be filmed with the fish in a tank. Clove oil does take several minutes to act at safe doses - which by the way are lower than what you are suggesting - 1 drop per 2.5 cups water. However surely this is best than inadvertently killing a fish? I'm trying to restrain myself from flaming here but I'll admit it's not easy.

The idea behind suggesting clove oil was that it could be used to knock out the fish in a safe environment - namely a TANK - and then that footage could be superimposed over the environment you want to use. I was in a hurry when I wrote the last post and clearly I didn't make it obvious enough (or made it downright unclear by writing the wrong thing) because now people are suggesting using a dangerous substance in totally the wrong way. Used irresponsibly it can kill fish.

I don't agree with any animal being harmed in the name of art, entertainment, sport or whatever else you might call it. I understand that some people might think I'm condoning this by suggesting ways it could be done better. I'm not, and if I had an iota of influence with these people I'd be doing everything I could to get it stopped. However it's obvious that they are fully intending to go ahead (all the other people asking them to stop) so the less suffering and the less stress caused to the fish, the better. I don't like the idea - AT ALL. I think it's yet another example of humans exploiting another creature cause we're bigger, badder and there's nothing they can do about it. I love fish as much as the rest of you, but since we can't dissuade this crazy stunt from going ahead, we can at least try to help the unfortunate fish involved.

 

[BBrain]

In my opinion, you should do either one of these two things:
1. Use computer animation. This is one place it was designed for.
2. Hire an experienced aquarist. Trying out procedures that can stress and potentially kill a fish is a poor way for a novice to take his or her first lesson in fish keeping.

 

[Bnew]

Alright this is getting really out of hand. I apologise if i'm appearing defensive and moody I am just a little frustrated that people aren't actually reading what I am saying, but rather posting emotional responses which while understandable are not relevant. I'm pushed for time so I'm just going to quickly summarise everything clearly so there's no more misunderstandings:

1. I have never said my own beliefs are that fish are worth less! My own beliefs are that all living creatures are valuable. Believe me, I'm one of the guys who spends an hour trying to redirect a fly or a wasp out of the house with a piece of paper, or gets a call in the middle of the night from a family member whos scared of spiders to come and remove one because she knows I'll be annoyed if she kills it. I have only said how fish are regarded in the eyes of the law regarding filming, and those involved in filming, and society at large. The point I have tried to make is that it is irrelevant what you or I believe.

2. The film would go ahead regardless of anything said here, if this thread had never been created the fish would have been placed out of the water and filmed until they died and then thrown in the bin, and any that survived flushed down the toilet. I am in the same position as those on this board, it is not my department on the film, I am merely trying to offer solutions to those responsible to do it as conscientiously as possible. Everyone who has posted information here has contributed to the wellbeing of the fish and should be commended not attacked.

3. As stated before, the current plan is for the fish never to leave the water during filming! The clove oil will be put in the pond where the fish will be placed, it will swim around then fall asleep, then be revived in a bucket.

Mikaila31, LauraFrog and MissWiggle thanks very much for the help again, I appreciate it.

I believe we're going to be using 4"-5" Ghost Koi now, rather than Goldfish. Are there any potential problems with that? Will we still need a heater?

I'd also appreciate any more info regarding safely handling the fish (into and out of the pond) to minimise the stress, do we need some special kind of gloves?

 

[bronzecat]

Hi, I'm looking for information about how best to film a scene with a fish out of water, without any harm coming to the fish.

I read another thread on these boards (http/www.fishforums.net/content-page/226441/pagination/page/0/) about the length of time fish can survive out of water, and it seems that it should be possible to achieve, and that the time fish can survive varies greatly with each type.

I think your memory is extraordinarily bad.

I think the more you say the bigger the hole and that maybe you were just attempting to find out the ways by which you could make your "film" look better....IMO.

Who's the money behind the film? Business, college, university?

 

[LauraFrog]

If you handle the fish with hands, even with gloves on, you will damage its scales, you need a soft net. I can pick up some of my fish but they are pet fish and I have spent several months hand taming them.
Clove oil is an oil and it will leave slicks on the water, if you're filming it doesn't look good. It also takes several minutes to act at anything approaching a safe dose, and unsafe or deadly doses usually take at least 1 minute to work. Clove oil does not induce thrashing around, that's part of the reason why we use it because it's humane.

If you want to use it for filming it has to be mixed into the water properly. Measure the water into the pond CUP FOR CUP or you could overdose the fish. The dose rate is 1 drop per 2.5 cups of water. Place the right number of drops into a small container, add water, shake thoroughly to break up the drops and dissolve the eugenol/phenoxyethanol into the water. Tip this into the pond.

There are other fish anaesthetics that are colourless and act faster but nothing humane causes a fish to thrash around as though it is out of water. These other substances are restricted and very difficult to get (ie barbiturates, opiates, chlorbutol/chlorotone). If you really want to do this clove oil is your best bet.

Also has anybody mentioned water dechlorinator??? You can't just chuck a fish into any water and expect it to survive.



I will state once again that I do not condone this crazy stunt and I don't want to be flamed for it. This will obviously go ahead regardless of anything we say - flame war, begging, pleading, threatening won't help. I can't prevent the suffering of the fish involved so I will try to reduce it. And just so you know, my mum is in the next room rolling her eyes at me for even bothering. 'One four-inch fish! Oh my god! The end of the known universe!" So to be honest the fish could have been in worse hands.

 

[Bnew]

Hi, I'm looking for information about how best to film a scene with a fish out of water, without any harm coming to the fish.

I read another thread on these boards (http/www.fishforums.net/content-page/226441/pagination/page/0/) about the length of time fish can survive out of water, and it seems that it should be possible to achieve, and that the time fish can survive varies greatly with each type.

I think your memory is extraordinarily bad.

bronzecat, re-read the post again, and the whole thread. I came here from a state of total ignorance, with absolutely NO knowledge at all, not knowing anything about the potential for the fish suffering.

As information was given it was taken on board and I tried to think of alternative solutions to get what we need, starting with having a pond, when there was originally none, to cut down the amount of time the fish needs to be out of water for (before I knew anything, I had originally stated 60secs), and then when the clove oil was suggested, I immediately changed the idea completely to keeping the fish in the water the whole time.

Those who voiced their concerns when the original idea was to have a fish suffocating and likely being traumatised then fair enough, that was a valid discussion and helpful to know more about. But it was only AFTER the changes to keep the fish in the water, you started complaining about the fish suffering, and only in vague general terms, nothing specific or helpful to minimise the suffering. If you have anything constructive then by all means suggest it and I will try to see if it can work, otherwise it's really not helping anyone to keep antagonising me.


LauraFrog, thanks again for the information! I will look into getting a soft net and dechlorinator, although I have got some API Stress Coat which was recommended earlier, is that not a dechlorinator or is it something different?

What would be the likely result of underdosing on the clove oil? Would the fish just be lethargic, or would it fall asleep and wake up again? Would it be more or less stressful? All we need is to capture the moment the fish stops swimming and falls asleep, so it would be ideal if we could err on the side of caution.

 

[LauraFrog]

If you think it will help I can get a video of a platy going under clove oil later so you can see what it does. It will probably stop moving and hang in the water several times but still be conscious, if you tap the container or put your hand in it will take off unsteadily again. You can probably get some good footage though. Underdosing is probably not a great idea, it will have the same effect but just take ages and ages. It might also stress the fish more to be incapable of swimming normally but still almost fully conscious and unable to do anything about it.

Don't diss bronzecat he has several good points, I happen to agree I just don't think flaming you will achieve anything since you obviously care more about the fish involved than the other people who are behind this.

Don't 'look into' getting dechlorinator, get some or the fish will die. To treat water for drinking councils add chlorine and chloramine which is a mix of chlorine and ammonia. Both are toxic to fish, a very unpleasant way to die and will kill it quite quickly. Stress coat is a good idea, I would use it. As far as I know it does not dechlorinate the water, but if it says it does, believe the label and not me.

If this was in Australia I'd offer to be there and supervise the whole thing or at the least take the fish afterwards and nurse it back to health, but as that isn't possible, try and find an aquarium club in your area or at least a good fish shop that will be happy to take the fish back.

What are you doing with the pond? Fake grass lining?

 

[Bnew]

This is the API Stress Coat that I have, it appears to be a dechlorinator also: http/www.charterhouse-aquatics.co.uk/cat...0ml-p-1154.html

If you could get a video that would be great, thanks.

I haven't heard the latest on the pond yet but I know the size of the pond liner is 3m x 2m and we're looking for some artificial grass to line the bottom with. How deep does the pond need to be for a Ghost Koi to swim in comfortably?

 

[spAcE mOnkEy]

Bnew, Just buy a fish and kill it ok? I think the death of one fish is worth the ending of this thread. A fish dying really isn't that big of a deal. I don't understand why all these people are so upset about one fish. Large fishing boats catch thousands of fish and just leave them out to die. Of course, later they are eaten, but does that really make it so much different? Many just go to waste because they have a short shelf life and not all are bought.

 

[DarkEntity]

Also there is the fish that "drown" while being dragged backwards by said fishing nets. If you really must do something this stupid do it with feeder fish like Guppy's, Platy, Molly or something for the most part worthless.

But ideally dont do it, use CG.

 

[chibi]

Here's my opinion. Seriously.

Do what you want with the damn fish. It's a fish. One fish.

Geez people, stop getting so worked up. I love fish too, but you can't save every single bloody fish on Earth. Get over it. Stop caring about this one fish and do something better with your time, like trying to stop the dumping in rivers that kills THOUSANDS.

 

[Lucky13]

This is extreemly cruel and very unessisary. I am OUTRAGED at this idea! Chibi, How can you think this, how can you say love love fish?! This idea made me feel sick. Just because the fish survives dosent mean it isn't suffering!! How wld you like to be knocked unconsous then be held under water for a minute? Just because It is a fish life doesn't mean it has any less value than ours. It seams that nine of you here really care about fish at all! I don't even Eat fish so Don't v=call me a hippocrat. This discused me so much have decided to leave the forum. Good bye.

 

[chibi]

This is extreemly cruel and very unessisary. I am OUTRAGED at this idea! Chibi, How can you think this, how can you say love love fish?! This idea made me feel sick. Just because the fish survives dosent mean it isn't suffering!! How wld you like to be knocked unconsous then be held under water for a minute? Just because It is a fish life doesn't mean it has any less value than ours. It seams that nine of you here really care about fish at all! I don't even Eat fish so Don't v=call me a hippocrat. This discused me so much have decided to leave the forum. Good bye.

Sorry you're so easily offended, but you see, human life will ALWAYS outweigh any other type of life. No question. You cannot put anything equal to humans. You're telling you'd have a hard time choosing between saving a child dying of cancer or a fish who is out of water? Gimme a break. You're obsessing. You can't tell me it's the same as drowning me. No contest. If anyone tells me a fish or any other living thing has the same value as a human's, you seriously need to work out your priorities. By the way, I don't eat fish either.

 

[spAcE mOnkEy]

Chibi is right, I agree with you 100%.

I'm glad Lucky13 is leaving, as this forum does not need people like that.