Ace Of Spades
Fish Gatherer
Your saying that me fishing is worse then you leaving a fish to slowly suffocate for fun?
Filming A Fish Out Of Water
- Thread starter Bnew
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Your saying that me fishing is worse then you leaving a fish to slowly suffocate for fun?
bronzecat
Leader of the Fishes
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Hi
So basically what your saying is, as its a small non commercial film suffering is ok?
As to saying my sentiment doesn't apply here, why doesn't it? Suffering caused intentionally is deemed as cruelty, whether its for your own entertainment, or a wider audience. Would the RSPCA condoned your actions?
You came on here to ask advice and opinions and I've given mine. Causing intentional cruelty, and knowingly causing cruelty cannot be condoned at any level.
Yes, it was good that you have decided to ask advice, but you have to accept that some may not agree.
As for spending my time worrying about eating fish.......are you going to eat the fish that die? Goldfish and other tropicals are not a food source.
Art! So if i used you in a film and took you to near death whilst holding you under water and.........oh you accidently died. Is that art?
The art thing doesn't wash on me I'm afraid. And there is not a big difference between art and entertainment.
In this day of CGI etc, there is no need at all to put any creature at risk.
I'm sorry if you dont agree with my opinion, but i keep fish to the best of my abilities and wouldn't knowingly do anything which would cause unecessary suffering
SPLiSH
Bettas are better!
Bnew,
I appreciate the fact that you came onto a fish forum and asked for advice. But you had to realise, surely, that a group of people who enjoy keeping fish alive and healthy as a hobby are not going to think this idea is a good one.
As for fish 'not being considered equal to other animals', I have to say some people do think this. Countless times I've told a story about my pets and had some person say 'So? It's just a fish...' I believe that if they are, as some people say, 'not equal' to other animals (keeping in mind we humans ARE animals as well) that just gives us a stronger duty of care towards them. You can tell a lot about a person based on how they treat those they have power over.
'The basis of all animal rights should be the Golden Rule: we should treat them as we would wish them to treat us, were any other species in our dominant position.' Christine Stevens.
I appreciate the fact that you came onto a fish forum and asked for advice. But you had to realise, surely, that a group of people who enjoy keeping fish alive and healthy as a hobby are not going to think this idea is a good one.
As for fish 'not being considered equal to other animals', I have to say some people do think this. Countless times I've told a story about my pets and had some person say 'So? It's just a fish...' I believe that if they are, as some people say, 'not equal' to other animals (keeping in mind we humans ARE animals as well) that just gives us a stronger duty of care towards them. You can tell a lot about a person based on how they treat those they have power over.
'The basis of all animal rights should be the Golden Rule: we should treat them as we would wish them to treat us, were any other species in our dominant position.' Christine Stevens.
Mikaila31
Always Watching
fish commercial- its funny, they used CGI almost all the way through except when the fish was out of the water flopping on the sidewalk. IMO fish don't receive the same rights as other animals, I don't think thats right but we must look at the truth. And why is everyone assuming that it is going to die? If done correctly the fish should not die.
It is really no better or worse than fishing for pleasure. Catching a fish w/ a hook dragging it to shore then taking it out of the water and handling it, before tossing it back is better? Both are done for entertainment or fun.
When you use clove oil, some fish tend to lose balance and will lay or float on their sides. so it could look dead without actually having to be removed from the water. Also when you use clove oil, the fish is not going to flop around when you take it out of water. You won't need a heater since goldfish are coldwater fish, but you will need a airpump to help revive the fish. You can get airpumps that run on batteries.
When using clove oil you must watch the fish very closely. Make sure their breathing does not get too slow. You will need a bucket with clean water to revive the fish in, you should run the airpump in this bucket and adding some aquarium salt won't hurt.
It is really no better or worse than fishing for pleasure. Catching a fish w/ a hook dragging it to shore then taking it out of the water and handling it, before tossing it back is better? Both are done for entertainment or fun.
When you use clove oil, some fish tend to lose balance and will lay or float on their sides. so it could look dead without actually having to be removed from the water. Also when you use clove oil, the fish is not going to flop around when you take it out of water. You won't need a heater since goldfish are coldwater fish, but you will need a airpump to help revive the fish. You can get airpumps that run on batteries.
When using clove oil you must watch the fish very closely. Make sure their breathing does not get too slow. You will need a bucket with clean water to revive the fish in, you should run the airpump in this bucket and adding some aquarium salt won't hurt.
cuticom
Fish Addict
I'm with bronze cat, use animation or something to do it, don't use a live fish. I also don't condone fishing or any intentional harming of animals at all. I don't see fish as unequal, they are living breathing animals in their own right, and even if they don't have as much as intelligence as we do, does not mean their worth less. Is a person a slow learner worth less because he's not as intelligent as other people?
When one of my tanks broke there was a betta out of water for less then 30 seconds before I could get him back into water, he died within 24 hours. He hadn't dried out, hadn't been injured, but his gills went bright red and he died.
When one of my tanks broke there was a betta out of water for less then 30 seconds before I could get him back into water, he died within 24 hours. He hadn't dried out, hadn't been injured, but his gills went bright red and he died.
Well that's opened a can of worms....
bronzecat, I don't mean to be rude but I didn't actually ask your or anyone else's opinion on the subject, I only asked for information and advice.
The point you missed in my post is that whether or not and to what extent fish suffer, is contentious, and as such fish aren't afforded the same protections other animals are. Case in point, the commercial that Mikaila31 linked.
So all these discussions while interesting are pointless because I don't have to give any consideration to the feelings or psychological well-being of the fish, I do so out of my own choice, so it doesn't really help if people jump on me or those who are trying to help minimise any potential suffering.
If you have a problem with it then I guess you should try and lobby to change the law or something, because trying to deny others their right to give me the information to do this in the best way possible is only going to result in the fish suffering more.
If noone had 'condoned' this as you said, by replying to the thread, it's almost certain that all fish would have died, whereas now it's almost certain that no fish will die.
Thanks for the info Mikaila, that is what I'd meant in my last post by using 9 drops per gallon, to have the fish being drowsy and then temporarily 'die' (fall asleep) in the water and float for a bit.
What kind of water should be in the buckets though, both transporting the fish and then reviving the fish. What exactly is "tank water"?
If anyone can help me with recommendations for air pumps that can run on batteries I would appreciate it. Also some more specific advice on how to handle the fish properly so as not to cause damage, when taking it from the bucket and putting it into the pond, and vice versa.
ImperfectFaerie
Fish Crazy
I think by coming to a fish enthusiast forum and asking 'advice' you opened the can of worms up yourself. Just sayin... not sure if you thought you'd get a positive response because frankly I'm surprised anyone is even giving you suggestions.
Mikaila31
Always Watching
I'm a little confused, you want the fish to be released into the pond you made and then look like they are dead or dieing, right?
cuticom
Fish Addict
So because theres no law, simple human common sense and ethics don't apply? What a closed off view. I can't see you giving consideration for a fishes wellbeing, if you did you'd be using animation as opposed to a real fish. I am lobbying to change the laws, but its people like you who make that impossible.
Mikaila31
Always Watching
Well, if he didn't care about the fish's wellbeing he wouldn't of made this tread in the first place. He planning on putting the fish under anesthesia, which will reduce its stress and simulate a dead fish. And is a better and safer method than letting the fish flop around out of the water. I've seen cruelty done to fish, but I can't see anything outright cruel with doing this. If done correctly the fish should live and not experience and negative effects.
Miss Wiggle
Practically perfect in every way
hmmm this has really got me thinking, on one hand, you have to see how you're asking for trouble by coming on a forum for fish enthusiasts and saying fish aren't equal to other animals 
not exactly the smartest way to get into our good books.
the idea's about fish not feeling pain or having the same psychological awareness as some other animals is a bit of a common misconception though. There's a fair bit of evidence to the contrary floating around the web if you feel like doing some research. Just cos no one in the goivernment has felt like putting through a change toi the law, doesn't mean that a change to the law would not be justififed. Quite frankly with the current terrorist threats, immigration problems and credit crunch, i'm fairly glad that the government are focusing on those things rather than fish treatment laws. That's not to say i don't think it's important, but you have to put it all into perspective.
I appreciate it's hard when people jump down your throat when you're just asking for information but I have to say you've come across a bit defensive and moody with people. But for me, simply the fact that you've come here asking for info and not just gone out and done it, is enough reason to treat you with a little respect.
And it sounds like your mind is made up to do this, so I'd rather you know how to do it properly and with as little risk to the fish as is possible.
So anyway, back to the case in point.
For fancy goldies, you may actually need a heater depending on the time of year for filming. While common goldies can over winter in a pond, fancies aren't really strong enough to cope with extreme winter temperatures. You'd have the heater set relativley low but just a little something could help them out.
Definatley get a couple of fish so you're not stressing the same fish out repeatedly.
What you should think of is what you're doing will cause some stress to the fish, done properly you can minimise this but there will be some stress. So when the fish is either travelling to be filmed or is done filming you should make sure the conditions are as good as possible so they can recover easily nad be at full strength.
If your just talking about optimum condiions for a day then what you should think of is space, cover and clean oxygenated water.
Tank water just means water from someone's tank, there's no reason for you to go to this trouble just for 1 day.
Get a big garden tidy tub from a DIY/garden centre, fill this with tap water and add some dechlorinator, heat the water to around 18 - 21 oC, rig up a battery powered air pump in the tank. Get something to cover the tub with, doesn't need to be fancy, just a sheet of ply or something like that (fish are less stressed in the dark with little sound or movement around them). Get a product called Melafix, this is a natural medicine based on tea tree oil and add this to the water (there will be dosage instructions on the pack). When that's all set up go and get the goldies from the fish shop, take them to set and put them in the tub asap.
Get your filming done, literally the second the camera stops be prepared to get the fish back into the tub (take care not to transfer any of the water with clove oil in), once it's in there cover the tub up and leave well alone for an hr or so. Best thing you can do for the fish is leave well alone and let it recover so best to cover the tub back up and leave it alone.
As for rehoming the fish afterwards, if the fish are in you're care for more than a day, then you should know a little about caring for them so do a bit of research on basic fish husbandry (if you look in the new to the hobby section of this forum there is loads of info there), get some good quality food, and because the tank/tub will be unfiltered I'd recommend doing 50% water changes daily otherwise the water will quickly become polluted with fish waste.
not exactly the smartest way to get into our good books.the idea's about fish not feeling pain or having the same psychological awareness as some other animals is a bit of a common misconception though. There's a fair bit of evidence to the contrary floating around the web if you feel like doing some research. Just cos no one in the goivernment has felt like putting through a change toi the law, doesn't mean that a change to the law would not be justififed. Quite frankly with the current terrorist threats, immigration problems and credit crunch, i'm fairly glad that the government are focusing on those things rather than fish treatment laws. That's not to say i don't think it's important, but you have to put it all into perspective.
I appreciate it's hard when people jump down your throat when you're just asking for information but I have to say you've come across a bit defensive and moody with people. But for me, simply the fact that you've come here asking for info and not just gone out and done it, is enough reason to treat you with a little respect.
And it sounds like your mind is made up to do this, so I'd rather you know how to do it properly and with as little risk to the fish as is possible.
So anyway, back to the case in point.
For fancy goldies, you may actually need a heater depending on the time of year for filming. While common goldies can over winter in a pond, fancies aren't really strong enough to cope with extreme winter temperatures. You'd have the heater set relativley low but just a little something could help them out.
Definatley get a couple of fish so you're not stressing the same fish out repeatedly.
What you should think of is what you're doing will cause some stress to the fish, done properly you can minimise this but there will be some stress. So when the fish is either travelling to be filmed or is done filming you should make sure the conditions are as good as possible so they can recover easily nad be at full strength.
If your just talking about optimum condiions for a day then what you should think of is space, cover and clean oxygenated water.
Tank water just means water from someone's tank, there's no reason for you to go to this trouble just for 1 day.
Get a big garden tidy tub from a DIY/garden centre, fill this with tap water and add some dechlorinator, heat the water to around 18 - 21 oC, rig up a battery powered air pump in the tank. Get something to cover the tub with, doesn't need to be fancy, just a sheet of ply or something like that (fish are less stressed in the dark with little sound or movement around them). Get a product called Melafix, this is a natural medicine based on tea tree oil and add this to the water (there will be dosage instructions on the pack). When that's all set up go and get the goldies from the fish shop, take them to set and put them in the tub asap.
Get your filming done, literally the second the camera stops be prepared to get the fish back into the tub (take care not to transfer any of the water with clove oil in), once it's in there cover the tub up and leave well alone for an hr or so. Best thing you can do for the fish is leave well alone and let it recover so best to cover the tub back up and leave it alone.
As for rehoming the fish afterwards, if the fish are in you're care for more than a day, then you should know a little about caring for them so do a bit of research on basic fish husbandry (if you look in the new to the hobby section of this forum there is loads of info there), get some good quality food, and because the tank/tub will be unfiltered I'd recommend doing 50% water changes daily otherwise the water will quickly become polluted with fish waste.
bronzecat
Leader of the Fishes
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Extract taken from RSPCA
"A person responsible for a goldfish is under the same duty as any other pet owner to ensure the needs of the goldfish are met.
Whether the bowl in which the goldfish is being kept is adequate depends on the size of the fish, the size of the fish bowl or tank and whether the environment provides for the fish's needs ¿ for example, is the volume of water large enough to provide a stable environment that is not vulnerable to normal changes in the surrounding ambient temperature? The bowl or tank also needs a sufficient water surface area to allow the fish to breathe and for harmful waste products to be released from the water. The general rule for cold-water fish is that a minimum water surface area of 60cm² is required for each 1cm body length of the fish (excluding its tail). Larger tanks can also be fitted with a pump, filter, lighting, thermometer and a ventilated cover to help maintain the required stable environment. Water plants are also important as they provide a source of oxygen and a refuge to reduce any disturbance of the occupants.
If a goldfish shows signs of distress, expert advice should be sought.The RSPCA would investigate cases where it is believed a fish's needs are not being met."
And
"Animals may often be subjected to forced training, performing to a timetable and performing acts which do not come naturally to them, as well as being exposed to ridicule and indignity. The Society will make representations to the media and respective regulatory bodies where use of an animal gives cause for concern."
I have included the link to the RSPCA site for reference purposes. www.rspca.org.uk
Therefore, advice given to how to take a fish and cause it suffering is actually assisting someone to cause that suffering. No where on the site does it mention whether it matters that the "film" is commercial or not.
Whilst the OP appears to be taking an interest in the well being of the fish, it does NOT take away the fact that, in the name of ART, a fish may come to harm due to his/their actions.
I have spent the last two months trying everything i could to save a sick fish, and today, despite my efforts, it died. And it appears that so called professional fish keepers are giving advice on how best to cause suffering.
"A person responsible for a goldfish is under the same duty as any other pet owner to ensure the needs of the goldfish are met.
Whether the bowl in which the goldfish is being kept is adequate depends on the size of the fish, the size of the fish bowl or tank and whether the environment provides for the fish's needs ¿ for example, is the volume of water large enough to provide a stable environment that is not vulnerable to normal changes in the surrounding ambient temperature? The bowl or tank also needs a sufficient water surface area to allow the fish to breathe and for harmful waste products to be released from the water. The general rule for cold-water fish is that a minimum water surface area of 60cm² is required for each 1cm body length of the fish (excluding its tail). Larger tanks can also be fitted with a pump, filter, lighting, thermometer and a ventilated cover to help maintain the required stable environment. Water plants are also important as they provide a source of oxygen and a refuge to reduce any disturbance of the occupants.
If a goldfish shows signs of distress, expert advice should be sought.The RSPCA would investigate cases where it is believed a fish's needs are not being met."
And
"Animals may often be subjected to forced training, performing to a timetable and performing acts which do not come naturally to them, as well as being exposed to ridicule and indignity. The Society will make representations to the media and respective regulatory bodies where use of an animal gives cause for concern."
I have included the link to the RSPCA site for reference purposes. www.rspca.org.uk
Therefore, advice given to how to take a fish and cause it suffering is actually assisting someone to cause that suffering. No where on the site does it mention whether it matters that the "film" is commercial or not.
Whilst the OP appears to be taking an interest in the well being of the fish, it does NOT take away the fact that, in the name of ART, a fish may come to harm due to his/their actions.
I have spent the last two months trying everything i could to save a sick fish, and today, despite my efforts, it died. And it appears that so called professional fish keepers are giving advice on how best to cause suffering.
beany_bot
Fish Crazy
Use CGI or similar - not cruelty. Even that said upon veiwing said "film" might encourage others to prelicate so dont reccomend it. might you a bit hippocritical seeing as how i play grand theft auto and dont want that banned. hmmm.
Mikaila31
Always Watching
Heres some links:
Anesthesia in koi
A group of video:
RTC on clove oil
RTC coming out of Clove oil daze
after clove oil
Anesthesia in koi
A group of video:
RTC on clove oil
RTC coming out of Clove oil daze
after clove oil
bronzecat
Leader of the Fishes
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Cant get on to youtube at present?
Do I presume though that tha vids show an RTC acting normally afterwards?
If thats the case.......so what? Does that still make it ok to attempt it in the name of art?
I'll put in perspective with reference to this forum.......When someone posts that they have "x" fish in with "y" fish and they are not compatible, or are keeping a fish in a tank which is too small......etc etc.......they are immediately told so! And why? Because of the well being of the fish.
IMO, anyone who advocates the taking of a healthy fish to the centre of a city to "attempt" to give it "just enough" clove oil to film it flopping about on the ground, and hoping that it will be alright, should take a look at themselves and their reasons for keeping fish?
Which ever way you look at it, its advocating cruelty which in itself, in this country, illegal!
Do I presume though that tha vids show an RTC acting normally afterwards?
If thats the case.......so what? Does that still make it ok to attempt it in the name of art?
I'll put in perspective with reference to this forum.......When someone posts that they have "x" fish in with "y" fish and they are not compatible, or are keeping a fish in a tank which is too small......etc etc.......they are immediately told so! And why? Because of the well being of the fish.
IMO, anyone who advocates the taking of a healthy fish to the centre of a city to "attempt" to give it "just enough" clove oil to film it flopping about on the ground, and hoping that it will be alright, should take a look at themselves and their reasons for keeping fish?
Which ever way you look at it, its advocating cruelty which in itself, in this country, illegal!
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