endlers and water hardness?

[dhjaksu]

bit of backstory before i get to the questions.

so i have a 55 gallon tank.
this tank has 12 maculata dwarf rasboras and 6 golden pencilfish and a betta. (will be a lot more bettas in the future as will be a betta sorority once my babies grow up, current adult in there will go back to his usual smaller tank).
they all prefer softer water.
tap and tank:
ph is 7.4
kh is 4 drops
gh is 9 drops
tank has lots of tannins and indian almond leaves.
it also has a pile of coral bones in the back.
i guess the coral, botanicals, and weekly water changes balance out because tap and tank match in parameters even the day water change is due (testing before doing water change). also ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are all fine before i do water changes, water changes are mostly to lighten the water a little and just to stay in the habit of doing them.


anyway, yesterday i was given a group of endlers. 9 males and 23 females. ive added them to this tank.
will they be ok with these water parameters? so far they seem fine but I assume they like harder water like guppies.

 

[Colin_T]

What does the GH and KH test kit measure in, ppm or dGH or something else?

I wouldn't keep Bettas with livebearers or pencilfish or dwarf rasboars.
Livebearers and Bettas come form different water, Bettas have soft acid, livebearers are harder and alkaline.

Pencilfish live near the surface and are no match for a Betta, neither are dwarf rasboras.

You might be ok with one Betta in the tank with them but I wouldn't put a number of Bettas in with them. That could end in bloodshed.

 

[GaryE]

A slightly different opinion coming - welcome to fish internet discussion.

It's a medium hard tank. I find having both coral and tannin producers a bit odd - one cancels the other. But the endlers would do okay.

The bettas are a problem. One long finned male is probably okay, but short finned females can swim, and they may pick off smaller fish that annoy them. You should also beware, by the way, as short finned males exist and on recent shipments, up to half the 'female' bettas my local store got were males. It doesn't go well.

Golden pencils are a bit delicate, and little Bororas can be too. Stress them with constant chasing and you'll lose them.

Around here, bettas are as common a dirt, but golden pencils are very rare sights indeed. I'd treasure them and make them the focus. You can always do bettas later.

 

[emeraldking]

anyway, yesterday i was given a group of endlers. 9 males and 23 females. ive added them to this tank.
will they be ok with these water parameters? so far they seem fine but I assume they like harder water like guppies.

If they're endlers, they'll be fine in moderate soft till hard water. Guppies with bigger fins need more harder water then endlers. If I look at your parameters, they should be okay in there. It's just the combination with a betta, that could be questionable if that will go alright.

 

[Byron]

If the golden pencilfish is the species Nannostomas beckfordi, do not put them with any surface fish like gourami and bettas. Males are very territorial. I had this species for 30 years, and more than once had to move them or another species for this reason.

They require a group of 10-12 minimum, so the males can keep their aggressive nature occupied with each other. Any fewer, and they may decide to go after lower fish. My group last year was down for five, and I had to euthanize them because they decided to nip the rummynose tetras.

 

[dhjaksu]

My

What does the GH and KH test kit measure in, ppm or dGH or something else?

I wouldn't keep Bettas with livebearers or pencilfish or dwarf rasboars.
Livebearers and Bettas come form different water, Bettas have soft acid, livebearers are harder and alkaline.

Pencilfish live near the surface and are no match for a Betta, neither are dwarf rasboras.

You might be ok with one Betta in the tank with them but I wouldn't put a number of Bettas in with them. That could end in bloodshed.

bettas are fine in my water and bred easily in my water.

My Kh comes to 4 dKH and gh is 9 dKH.
I’ve had guppies before in this water and they seemed fine.

The rasboras and pencilfish seem happy enough and have been spawning a lot. It I don’t expect any eggs or babies to survive.

I have 1 male betta in there currently with them and he doesn’t interact with any of them and none of them interact with him.

I’m hoping my babies get their temperament from their parents, their parents are the 2 most chill bettas I’ve ever seen

 

[dhjaksu]

A slightly different opinion coming - welcome to fish internet discussion.

It's a medium hard tank. I find having both coral and tannin producers a bit odd - one cancels the other. But the endlers would do okay.

The bettas are a problem. One long finned male is probably okay, but short finned females can swim, and they may pick off smaller fish that annoy them. You should also beware, by the way, as short finned males exist and on recent shipments, up to half the 'female' bettas my local store got were males. It doesn't go well.

Golden pencils are a bit delicate, and little Bororas can be too. Stress them with constant chasing and you'll lose them.

Around here, bettas are as common a dirt, but golden pencils are very rare sights indeed. I'd treasure them and make them the focus. You can always do bettas later.

My male I have just hanging out in their is a plakat and great swimmer but he is SUPER chill. He’s the father of the babies. Even have little neocaridina shrimp in the tank with him and the mum when pairing and spawnung and kept them in the tank when he was hatching out the eggs and raising the wrigglers. Removed him and kept the shrimp in and through the entire prodded of raising the babies I plan on keeping the shrimp with them.

But anyway, I have lots of babies to choose from (200+) so I will choose the 15 most peaceful girls.

And if they take after their parents, who are the 2 most chill bettas I’ve ever seen, their shouldn’t be any issues.


The pencilfish are at my local aquarium store and honestly pretty cheap. And they seem pretty happy so far. They have been spawning a little already but I ordered from somewhere online and ended up getting 5 males and 1 female. So the males are far too interested in each other to be paying attention to anything else in the tank. The female spends all her time swimming around with the rasboras. On the weekend I’m going to go to the local aquarium shop and pick out 9 more females.

But I do specifically want this tank to be a sorority tank. I go into the defence force at the end of next year and will be taking a break from fish keeping when I do. It won’t be until almost the end of the year that my babies are old enough to be sexed and added to the tank so I’ll have plenty of time to enjoy the current fish while I wait for my bettas to grow up.


And also I know about short finned males. All but 1 of my males is plakat or short fin and the long fin one is a rescue. I like the short fin ones way more than the long fin. But because I have a lot of short fin males I am fairly good at telling the difference between males and females. I will wait until I’m 100% sure on genders and temperament before adding them to the sorority tank. And I’ll be selling the males as it comes clear that they are males. Dad is a halfmoon plakat so I’m hoping to get some halfmoon plakat babies. I don’t know what the mum is.


But again, if the babies get their temperament from their parents their shouldn’t be any issues at all

 

[dhjaksu]

If they're endlers, they'll be fine in moderate soft till hard water. Guppies with bigger fins need more harder water then endlers. If I look at your parameters, they should be okay in there. It's just the combination with a betta, that could be questionable if that will go alright.

The parents of my baby bettas are the most chill bettas I’ve ever seen. If my babies get their temperaments from their parents their shouldn’t be any issues at all with them being aggressive.

And I have over 200 little baby bettas so surely at least 15 of the females will be super chill.


I had guppies in the past that did pretty good, I ended up selling them all because I felt bad about my water parameters. so I’m hoping that endlers will be fine.

 

[dhjaksu]

If the golden pencilfish is the species Nannostomas beckfordi, do not put them with any surface fish like gourami and bettas. Males are very territorial. I had this species for 30 years, and more than once had to move them or another species for this reason.

They require a group of 10-12 minimum, so the males can keep their aggressive nature occupied with each other. Any fewer, and they may decide to go after lower fish. My group last year was down for five, and I had to euthanize them because they decided to nip the rummynose tetras.

I ordered 6 online because it was quite noticeably cheaper and did so with the plan on going to the local aquarium shop and buying 9 more to balance out the ratio of males to females once I worked out what I ended up with from the online order. I ended up with 5 males and 1 female. So on Saturday I’ll be going and buying 9 females from the local aquarium shop.


Also the males so far have not paid any attention at all to any of the other fish. They are too busy paying attention to the other males to acknowledge that anything else exists.

The female spends all her time swimming with the little rasboras.


So far the males have not shown any aggression at all to any species other than their own though.

 

[Brighton Fan]

If the golden pencilfish is the species Nannostomas beckfordi, do not put them with any surface fish like gourami and bettas. Males are very territorial. I had this species for 30 years, and more than once had to move them or another species for this reason.

They require a group of 10-12 minimum, so the males can keep their aggressive nature occupied with each other. Any fewer, and they may decide to go after lower fish. My group last year was down for five, and I had to euthanize them because they decided to nip the rummynose tetras.

Good info. I've never kept Pencil fish due to water hardness but have since found out that the Beckfordi will be OK in my water. PH 7.4. GH.8.9
Couple of questions if I may ?

I read that they would make good dither fish. Do you think they will be OK with a pair of apistogrammas?
Do they have a tendency to jump ?
Would they be OK with some current? I have a Fluval 207 on a Roma 125?
Are they capable of eating live brine shrimp and glass worm ? This is what I feed my apistos on. Funnily enough my CPDS will eat those live foods.
Do they only eat from the surface?
Thanks

 

[Byron]

I read that they would make good dither fish. Do you think they will be OK with a pair of apistogrammas?

This should be OK. This pencilfish species remains at or close to the surface, and males have a territory up there, of which they can be very protective. Apistogramma by contrast remain at or just above the substrate. In my experience over 15 years of keeping N. beckfordi, they primarily attacked fish that made the mistake of encroaching on the pencil's territory, like hatchetfish (these were savagely attacked initially and I moved them) and otosinclus. Cories that approached the surface also got attacked.

Do they have a tendency to jump ?

Not more than most fish. My tanks were/are always covered, and except when I forget to close the cover after feeding, nothing jumps out. All fish are prone to jump during darkness, if something startles them from below. And this is common, hence the cover.

Would they be OK with some current? I have a Fluval 207 on a Roma 125?

Provided all the fish can get well out of the current, it should not be a problem. Remember, current is 24/7 so fish have no escape to rest if they are constantly fighting it.

Are they capable of eating live brine shrimp and glass worm ? This is what I feed my apistos on. Funnily enough my CPDS will eat those live foods.
Do they only eat from the surface?

Most upper level fish eat from the surface as that is where in their habitats the insects occur. But most fish will readily eat any food they find wherever it is. And beckfordi are well able to eat live foods.