Dyed and Hybrid Fish..what we all should know

[pica_nuttalli]

tsk, tsk, T1KARMANN. you know the rules: no bashing the hybrids here.

but fuss about dyed fish all you want. dyeing fish is horrific.

 

[T1KARMANN]

tsk, tsk, T1KARMANN. you know the rules: no bashing the hybrids here.

but fuss about dyed fish all you want. dyeing fish is horrific.

so you think its bad to dye fish but its ok to make a fish and put 100000000000 of fry throw pain with deformatys until they got the shape they were looking for let alone the amount they must have culled until they got it right

for me no one can say anything about dyed fish if they except any type of man made hybrid

they have both been created with the same purpose to make money

if people excepted the dyed fish the way people have embraced the parrot fish and flower horn dont you think we would see a lot more dyed fish for sale

i feel its a double standard to say hybrids are ok but dyed fish are not

 

[black angel]

Pica is pointing out the rule for this forum, and that is not to bash anyone keeping hybrids or hybrids in general.
If you dont like Hybrids then thats for you but not everyone shares that sentiment, which is why this forum is here purely for the people who keep them.
Please refrain from any more comments against hybrids.

 

[Piltdownpaul]

Some of those asians have a lot to answer for in the "messing about with animals" criteria. But i 'spose there must be a demand or maybe they are creating one . Avoid and spread the word

 

[T1KARMANN]

Pica is pointing out the rule for this forum, and that is not to bash anyone keeping hybrids or hybrids in general.
If you dont like Hybrids then thats for you but not everyone shares that sentiment, which is why this forum is here purely for the people who keep them.
Please refrain from any more comments against hybrids.

so before i leave this thread alone lets get one thing straight

its fine to say bad things about dyed fish and say they should be banned and how cruel they are so much so their is a whole thread about it

but never say anything bad about hybrids mmmmmm OK i understand

lets start a forum of its own were no one is allowed to say a bad word about dyed fish as thats what the hybrid owners have a palce it hide and not get bashed

 

[pica_nuttalli]

Pica is pointing out the rule for this forum, and that is not to bash anyone keeping hybrids or hybrids in general.
If you dont like Hybrids then thats for you but not everyone shares that sentiment, which is why this forum is here purely for the people who keep them.
Please refrain from any more comments against hybrids.

so before i leave this thread alone lets get one thing straight

its fine to say bad things about dyed fish and say they should be banned and how cruel they are so much so their is a whole thread about it

but never say anything bad about hybrids mmmmmm OK i understand

lets start a forum of its own were no one is allowed to say a bad word about dyed fish as thats what the hybrid owners have a palce it hide and not get bashed

T1KAR, i adore your company in Oddballs but most of your arguements against hybrids (in this case) are fallacious. i agree with you that hybridization is not to be taken lightly and is highly undesirable in many instances, but I do not agree that it is cruelty.

there's a significant difference between cross-breeding and knowingly torturing fish with oversized needles and poisonous chemicals. you also cannot argue that all hybrids are deformed or prove that the deformities appearing in many commerical hybrids are painful. i will agree that i too find obviously debilitating deformities (such as koks the size of the fish itself) to be distasteful and of questionable merit, but such "deformities" are not unique to the man-made hybrids (celestial goldfish, "full moon" bettas). i'd also like to point out that more people on this forum knowingly own these non-hybridized deformed fish than people knowingly own deformed hybrids. but even while these deformities impede the lifestyles of the fish and require special accomodations in selecting tankmates, the fish do not appear to actually suffer. and anyone who specializes in rare oddballs should recognize that plenty of naturally occuring species require just as much sensitivity.

culling of fry with undesirable traits is common in any type of line-breeding, not just hybridization. considering that fry is one of Nature's top delicacies, i don't think that there is inherently anything wrong with culling (although certain methods are more reprehensible than others). also, haven't you argued before that accidental hybrid spawns should be immediately culled instead of distributed?

as for the influence of "making money" in the creation of these fish, why on earth do you think that your beloved red arowana even exists? because someone realized that people will pay much more for bright red arowanas than they will for dull red arowanas. the same is the case for any other cultivated color morph. i also don't think that any LFS opens without the idea of earning a little money off at least a few of the fish they sell.

yes, many hybrids are violently created with milking and horomone injections. but given the extraordinary number of home-hybridizers that frequent this forum, i really don't think that the hybrids most popular here were created in this way. i also feel pretty confident that none of our members are going around with syringes full of testosterone. dying is fundamentally different from breeding flowerhorns and convict crosses.

look, if someone with a hybrid posts in a different forum, then they're fair game to criticism until the topic gets moved. no rules there against saying "oooooo i violently disagree with this practice". ditto for people owning dyed fish. but this forum is a SAFE HAVEN to serve the definite needs of people who own hybrids, whether on purpose or by accident. the rigidity of your responses to hybridization of any sort only serves to better illustrate the need for this protection.

 

[DarkEntity]

Hybreds can be good if done correctly, unfortunately it never does get done humainly or correctly. You have 1000 fry of which 10 will be kept the rest will be mashed up into food for the survivors and other fish.

If you really want to hybredise a fish at least do it sensibly, all these genetic idiots crossing this with that and manipulating this and the other to make this part of the fish longer, that squater etc is simply wrong. (look at BEtta Spelndins, Goldfish for example) You guys can protect the feelings of all the hybred breeding muppets all you like, but at the end of the day its something that should be done in a lab with a specific outcome in mind that will help either the species or all species. I know that currently this also doesnt seem to be controlled hence all the stupi fish about.

People on here who cross breed fish imo seems more pure guess work and luck than skill. If its done in a lab with specific reasons, then gene mixing can help species become stronger and have better immune systems, but lets face it, this forums Hybred breeders having nothing like that in mind, all they want is to have a cross that no one else has, which definately isnt a reason that a public forum should encourage.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

OMG, you people do realize that the complaint regarding culling is not restricted to hybrids, right? pretty much any fish linebred to look "special" is the result of strict culling protocols by somebody. unless you only own wild-type fish, then you are a hypocrite for using this as the basis of your argument against hybrids

better arguements against uncontrolled hybridization? the unpredictability of unsual combinations makes certain hybrids difficult to appropriately house. the "accidental" breeding of hybrids back into one of the parent lines dillutes the available gene pool of captive-bred fish. this in turn makes it difficult to find 100% pure strains in the hobby and encourages the continued (and unnecessary) importation of wild fish. these are the reasons that hybridization of the Rift Lake Cichlids is highly discouraged. unnecessary importation is one of the primary arguements against endler-guppy crosses.

hybridization is not really that different from breeding any other cichlid of which there is an excess (see angels) or comes in specialized varieties (see discus). do you really think that every baby angel gets to grow up and finds a loving home? or that pigeon blood discus just spontaneously occured uniformly in a single spawn? of course not. but i don't see you chasing around those breeders with pitchforks decrying how they're ruining the hobby--because they aren't. so if you aren't interested in hybrids and if you don't agree with keeping them, then keep out of the hybrid forum.

 

[DarkSoul]

The carcinogenic pigments used on the colored tetra and colored botia are stored in vacuoles in cells creating a faint background color.

Did you know carcinogenic means that it causes cancer?

In the UK we are fighting against these practices with the help of a magazine (and winning!)

knucklehead : any hobby which deliberately causes an animal to feel pain is cruel imo. I don't even eat fish as I don't feel comfortable with eating something I keep as a pet, but the mother in law is a different matter

so your not scared to eat your mother in law even though you keep her as a pet?

 

[SnBMeg]

I've been wondering, why was the Lionhead listed as a hybrid in the OP?

All goldfish are Carassius auratus, right? So wouldn't the Lionhead--as well as every other breed of goldfish except the Common and possibly Comets and Shubunkin--be better classified as "modified" rather than "hybrid?" Why the Lionhead in particular? If we're talking same-species hybrids then I would think that something like a Demekin or Hamanishiki would be more appropriate for a base example of hybridization.

The only true cross-species goldfish hybrid that I'm aware of is Comet/Koi.

 

[DiscusAngel]

I think its harsh Dyed fish nd Hybrids. Parrots are the biggest Hybrids. they have stuck mouths they are completly awkword i dont think its right just my input and i wold enever buy one.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

I've been wondering, why was the Lionhead listed as a hybrid in the OP?

All goldfish are Carassius auratus, right? So wouldn't the Lionhead--as well as every other breed of goldfish except the Common and possibly Comets and Shubunkin--be better classified as "modified" rather than "hybrid?" Why the Lionhead in particular? If we're talking same-species hybrids then I would think that something like a Demekin or Hamanishiki would be more appropriate for a base example of hybridization.

The only true cross-species goldfish hybrid that I'm aware of is Comet/Koi.

good catch. you're right, that isn't a hybrid but is just a heavily line-bred category of goldfish.

really, this whole thread needs to be tidied-up and possibly un-merged. dyed fish and hybrids are completely different issues and it's unfair to hybrid-keepers to conflate the two. but until this section gets a mod, i suppose things will just have to stay as they are.

 

[nckate]

A lot of people don't realize that "species" is a fairly fluid concept. Animals and plants are moved around and reclassified all the time, and some of the guidelines are pretty vague. If two fish can crossbreed and occur in the same envorinment, hybridization will often occur. It can also lead to completely new species occuring.

I can see why people would object if species conservation (i.e. protecting a pure bloodline) is important, but as long as the fish aren't suffering or in difficulties, I don't see how hybridization is that different from selective breeding of livestock or crops. And almost everything we eat has been selectively bred, unless you're a hunter/gatherer.

For instance, domestic wheat arose from a hybridization of different wheat species. Some people think zebus should be classified as a distinct species, others say they're just "hybrids." And I don't see anyone bashing mules (offspring of a horse and a donkey.)

BTW, did you know that domestic wheat is a hybrid species? Look it up. </lecture>

ETA: one of the measures of species relatedness is whether members of two different species can interbreed.

In short: it's not that simple. Think before you bash.

 

[Lord Spooky]

Seriously how does someone come up with an idea like this. Its cruel these people probably didn't get hugged enough as kids. So hmm lets torture fish and get money. Make money without harming any animals or anyone. Those people make me sick.

 

[proudpinoy]

i admit, i loved seeing super red arowanas. but when i saw that they were simply malaysian arowanas injected with dye, i was kinda turned off by it already.

hybirds, i don't have any problem with those as long as they still look like fish. koks (the big bump in FH heads) is also a natural occurence among cichlids, it's just that only the alpha male gets to develop one. culling fry through feeding to bigger fish is completely natural, that's how nature works, survival of the fittest.

Dyed. a big no no. Hybrid, mostly acceptable.