Dr Tims All In One Fish In Cycle

[AlexT]

Hi All,
EDIT/UPDATE
If you could still read the below please, but I am wondering if it would be more sensible to use pure ammonia and get the reading to 2.0ppm and see if Dr Tim's can process the best part of 2.0ppm in 24 hrs before I add the fish?

Main question
I'm going to be using Dr Tim's One and Only. I can't find this answer anywhere. Does there need to be a pre-existing positive ammonia level in the tank before adding Dr Tim's? Or, will the fish listed below start producing enough ammonia straight off the bat for Dr Tim's bacteria to be taken out of their dormant phase to start working? Or perhaps, do I introduce the fish first, for a period of 3, 6, or 12 hours before adding Dr Tim's?

Context
I've read the main teaching threads on here about cycling and also a lot of wider reading this weekend. I am experienced in setting up about 10 to 15 tropical tanks from new, all be it 10 to 12 years ago. I usually either did the "prawn method" (which I wouldn't do now) or the very gradual 1 or 2 fish at a time method (which I wouldn't do now).

I am a testing freak, and to the best of my knowledge have lost less than 5 adult fish during the first 4 to 8 weeks cycling (from approx 10 to 15 new tank start ups). I have no experience of adding pure ammonia to start a cycle. I have no experience of using supplements to help a cycle apart from Fluval Cycle which I don't think did anything.

I am not a veteran but I also not a complete novice with cycling.

I'm gambling on a "fish from day 3" cycle. What I mean by that is setting up the tank with the substrate and boxwood, 25/77 temperature, with internal filter running and letting it run on empty for 2 days.

110 litre tank. On day 3 I will be adding about 6 small albino corydoras (3 cm each) and x2 small BN pleco (5-6cm). My water is slightly hard to hard and the pH is something between 7.5 and 8.0

I also have API Quick Start and Seachem Stability as a back up, depending on my test results. I'll be testing for ammonia and nitrite several times a day and nitrate, less often. I have Seachem Prime for an emergency. I have an additional internal filter to use as well to maintain high surface agitation during the cycle.

 

[Essjay]

Do I understand that you intend using Dr Tim's One & Only to help a fish-in cycle? That's what you'll be doing if you add fish in day 3.

On his website, Dr Tim suggests using One & Only and his ammonium chloride to do a fishless cycle. This is the better option, rather than a fish-in cycle, whether with One & Only or not.



As a side issue, API Quick Start, Seachem Stability and Fluval Cycle do not contain the correct species of nitrite eaters.

 

[AlexT]

Do I understand that you intend using Dr Tim's One & Only to help a fish-in cycle? That's what you'll be doing if you add fish in day 3.

On his website, Dr Tim suggests using One & Only and his ammonium chloride to do a fishless cycle. This is the better option, rather than a fish-in cycle, whether with One & Only or not.



As a side issue, API Quick Start, Seachem Stability and Fluval Cycle do not contain the correct species of nitrite eaters.

Thank you for your time on this. I am aware the Dr Tim "One and Only" product is rated as the gold standard, and others are debateable. Just thought I'd feed something back to you if you are interested. My Dr Tim's product is delayed on getting to me, so I started with the API Quick Start. I've never seen nitrite levels so soon, what do you think? Day 1 of the fishless cycle (brand new set up, no seeding or other beneficial bacteria added). On day 1 after dosing with the ammonia (and API Quick Start), the ammonia reading on my API kit was around 1.5 to 2.0 ppm. The ammonia reading this morning (Day 2) was about 0.50 ppm to 1.0 ppm and the nitrite reading was 0.25 ppm. So, I am getting Nitrite readings within 16 hours of adding ammonia and API Quick Start.

 

[Essjay]

Virtually all bacterial starters contain the correct species of ammonia eaters, so all of them will start the cycle quickly. It's the nitrite stage that takes time with most brands.
The use of and detection of the correct nitrite eaters is copyrighted, and the two brands which hold the copyright are Dr Tim and Tetra. Can you source Tetra Safe Start quickly? That would help speed up the second part of the cycle if One & Only is delayed.

 

[AlexT]

Virtually all bacterial starters contain the correct species of ammonia eaters, so all of them will start the cycle quickly. It's the nitrite stage that takes time with most brands.
The use of and detection of the correct nitrite eaters is copyrighted, and the two brands which hold the copyright are Dr Tim and Tetra. Can you source Tetra Safe Start quickly? That would help speed up the second part of the cycle if One & Only is delayed.

Thanks loads. Yes, could probably get Tetra Safe Start, cheers.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Dr. Tim's bacteria arrives is a state of dormancy. The nitrifying bacteria do not create spores. They reproduce by dividing. They do this in response to the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. But, it is really the ammonia that drives things in cycling and determining how mucgch and which types of bacteria we have in our tanks.

Because the nitrifiers do not form spores they need another strategy to survive bad times. What they do is basically go dormant. They are still alive but barely active. What causes them to "wake up" and get back to work is when what they need agains become available. For out purposes here this is basically driven by ammonia.

So, if you read what Dr. Hovanec suggests, it helps to be aware of how it works. His directions for doing a fishless cycle using his One and Only are pretty simple. He suggests one use his ammonium chloride, but the key is adding ammonia and there are other products and ways to do this. However, his ammonium chloride makes things very simple and easy as there is little need to dose and test, you just add 4 drops per gallon of water and you will get the equivalent on an API test kit of about 2.56 ppm of ammonia into the tank.

You can also add 1 ml of the ammonium chloride per 20 gals. of water and get the same result. Just to be sure you understand about ammonia in water- ammonia (NH3) in water turns mostly into ammonium chloride (NH4). The higher the pH and/or temp., the more of the total ammonia in the water will be in the very toxic NH3 form- this is ammonia. But, in water, NH3 turns mostly into (NH4) which is much less toxic.

Next, the bacteria want ammonia as NH3, but plants and algae want it as NH4. The plants and algae can use NH4 faster than the bacteria can use NH3. However, no matter how many plants one has in a tank, there will still be some amount of bacteria (it is often on the plants). Together they keep our tanks safe from ammonia etc. On the other hand, one can have no plants and minimal algae in which case the bacteria do almost allof the work.

Phew.... Next, when we use a product like Dr. Tim's or Terta's Safe Star, you get the live bacteria (asleep). You need ammonia in the water to get them going. You can add the ammonia before and after adding the Dr. Tim's. You can also use some fish instead. But this carries more risk and I do not suggest anybody do it that way. I can tell you that if a bottle of Dr. Tim's has not been allowed to get below freezing or much above 90F, they should be alive and will wake up from the presence of ammonia.

Like anything else it can take one person more or less time than another due to any number of small difference between their tanks. But bith will get cycled for sure. I have run both bio-farms for cyclung filters as well as cycling individual tanks. I have used One and Only multiple times with great results. If you use the fishless cycling method on Dr. Tim's site for fishless cycling and you follow the directions you will have a tank fully cycled and able to hold a full sticking all at once in most cases. This can take about 7 - 10 days for the tank to be ready.

One more important thing to know about using either of the two products I mentioned. They contain both the ammonia and the nitrite bacteria needed to havce a cycled tank. What this means is whatever amount of ammonia the bacteria in the bottle can convert to nitrite, there are enough of the nitrite bacteria to convert that to nitrate. However, depending on how long the bacteria have been in the bottle, it can take more or less time for them to wake up and get to work. Since we can provide ammonia for those bacteria, they must then start to create the nitrite to wake up those bacteria.

This is why it can take 7-10 days in almost all cases for one to get a tank cycled for a full fish load using the bottled products. To make sure you have the right instructions, they are here https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/library/quick-guide-to-fishless-cycling-with-one-and-only/

There is only one problem with Dr. Tim's insrtructions. As a scientist he uses the nitrogen scale (N) to measure ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. We as hobbyists mostly have test kits that measure things using the Total Ion scale (TI) So, to make sense of Dr. Tim's instructions, we need to convert his test numbers from the nitrogen scale to the total ion scale. Fortunately, there are simple conversions for doing so.

Rather than go into an in depth explanation of how to calculate these, just use the info below. To go from the N scale to the TI scale, you multiply the N number by the conversion factor. To convert from the TI scale to the N scale, simply divide the TI number by the conversion fastor.

To convert Ammonia-N to the TI scale the factor is 1.21589.
To convert Ammonium-N to the TI scale the factor is 1.28786
Because Total Ammonia (TA in tanks is mostly NH4, it becomes reasonable to use a Factor of 1.28.
To convert Nitrite-N to the TI scale, the factor is 3.28443
To convert Nitrate-N to the TI scale, the factor is 4.42664

For the scientist using the N scale 1 ppm of ammonia = 1 ppm nitrite = 1 ppm nitrate.
But for us, using the TI scale, we know that 1 ppm of ammonia can result in a maximum of about 3.28 ppm of nitrate and that can turn into a max. of about 4.43 of nitrate.

However, it is rare that we see these conversion rates hitting the maximim potential test result. We can know how many ppm of ammonia we add, but after that various factors can change the subsequent numbers. What we can know is what tha maximin level those numbers might reachbut in most cases we will see a lower number for nitrite and nitrate. Ammonia is a gas and can evaporate. So some ammonia may be lost which means we see lower nitrite and or nitrate numbers. Plants and algea may also use the Nitrogen in any of the 3 forms and that can cause numbers to be lower than expected.

What we can know is what the maximum amount of nitrite or nitrate we might see should be. If we see higher numbers, it is a good bet something is wrong- usually testing errors, expired test kit reagents or the fact that judging the colors is subjective, One persons 2 ppm can be 2.5 or 1. 5 to another person. That is the drawback of our test kits and judging colors with our eyes rather than expensive lab equipment.

Finally, if the numbers are out of line on the high side. It can mean that something has gone off track during cycling. A good example would be having low KH. The bacteria need inorganic carbon and in our tanks they get a lot of that from the things that make up KH in a tank (carbonates and bicarbonates). But pH being stable also relies on these same things in large part. The cycle itself creates acid and, over time, these can build up and cause the pH to drop suddenly.

 

[AlexT]

Dr. Tim's bacteria arrives is a state of dormancy. The nitrifying bacteria do not create spores. They reproduce by dividing. They do this in response to the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. But, it is really the ammonia that drives things in cycling and determining how mucgch and which types of bacteria we have in our tanks.

Because the nitrifiers do not form spores they need another strategy to survive bad times. What they do is basically go dormant. They are still alive but barely active. What causes them to "wake up" and get back to work is when what they need agains become available. For out purposes here this is basically driven by ammonia.

So, if you read what Dr. Hovanec suggests, it helps to be aware of how it works. His directions for doing a fishless cycle using his One and Only are pretty simple. He suggests one use his ammonium chloride, but the key is adding ammonia and there are other products and ways to do this. However, his ammonium chloride makes things very simple and easy as there is little need to dose and test, you just add 4 drops per gallon of water and you will get the equivalent on an API test kit of about 2.56 ppm of ammonia into the tank.

You can also add 1 ml of the ammonium chloride per 20 gals. of water and get the same result. Just to be sure you understand about ammonia in water- ammonia (NH3) in water turns mostly into ammonium chloride (NH4). The higher the pH and/or temp., the more of the total ammonia in the water will be in the very toxic NH3 form- this is ammonia. But, in water, NH3 turns mostly into (NH4) which is much less toxic.

Next, the bacteria want ammonia as NH3, but plants and algae want it as NH4. The plants and algae can use NH4 faster than the bacteria can use NH3. However, no matter how many plants one has in a tank, there will still be some amount of bacteria (it is often on the plants). Together they keep our tanks safe from ammonia etc. On the other hand, one can have no plants and minimal algae in which case the bacteria do almost allof the work.

Phew.... Next, when we use a product like Dr. Tim's or Terta's Safe Star, you get the live bacteria (asleep). You need ammonia in the water to get them going. You can add the ammonia before and after adding the Dr. Tim's. You can also use some fish instead. But this carries more risk and I do not suggest anybody do it that way. I can tell you that if a bottle of Dr. Tim's has not been allowed to get below freezing or much above 90F, they should be alive and will wake up from the presence of ammonia.

Like anything else it can take one person more or less time than another due to any number of small difference between their tanks. But bith will get cycled for sure. I have run both bio-farms for cyclung filters as well as cycling individual tanks. I have used One and Only multiple times with great results. If you use the fishless cycling method on Dr. Tim's site for fishless cycling and you follow the directions you will have a tank fully cycled and able to hold a full sticking all at once in most cases. This can take about 7 - 10 days for the tank to be ready.

One more important thing to know about using either of the two products I mentioned. They contain both the ammonia and the nitrite bacteria needed to havce a cycled tank. What this means is whatever amount of ammonia the bacteria in the bottle can convert to nitrite, there are enough of the nitrite bacteria to convert that to nitrate. However, depending on how long the bacteria have been in the bottle, it can take more or less time for them to wake up and get to work. Since we can provide ammonia for those bacteria, they must then start to create the nitrite to wake up those bacteria.

This is why it can take 7-10 days in almost all cases for one to get a tank cycled for a full fish load using the bottled products. To make sure you have the right instructions, they are here https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/library/quick-guide-to-fishless-cycling-with-one-and-only/

There is only one problem with Dr. Tim's insrtructions. As a scientist he uses the nitrogen scale (N) to measure ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. We as hobbyists mostly have test kits that measure things using the Total Ion scale (TI) So, to make sense of Dr. Tim's instructions, we need to convert his test numbers from the nitrogen scale to the total ion scale. Fortunately, there are simple conversions for doing so.

Rather than go into an in depth explanation of how to calculate these, just use the info below. To go from the N scale to the TI scale, you multiply the N number by the conversion factor. To convert from the TI scale to the N scale, simply divide the TI number by the conversion fastor.

To convert Ammonia-N to the TI scale the factor is 1.21589.
To convert Ammonium-N to the TI scale the factor is 1.28786
Because Total Ammonia (TA in tanks is mostly NH4, it becomes reasonable to use a Factor of 1.28.
To convert Nitrite-N to the TI scale, the factor is 3.28443
To convert Nitrate-N to the TI scale, the factor is 4.42664

For the scientist using the N scale 1 ppm of ammonia = 1 ppm nitrite = 1 ppm nitrate.
But for us, using the TI scale, we know that 1 ppm of ammonia can result in a maximum of about 3.28 ppm of nitrate and that can turn into a max. of about 4.43 of nitrate.

However, it is rare that we see these conversion rates hitting the maximim potential test result. We can know how many ppm of ammonia we add, but after that various factors can change the subsequent numbers. What we can know is what tha maximin level those numbers might reachbut in most cases we will see a lower number for nitrite and nitrate. Ammonia is a gas and can evaporate. So some ammonia may be lost which means we see lower nitrite and or nitrate numbers. Plants and algea may also use the Nitrogen in any of the 3 forms and that can cause numbers to be lower than expected.

What we can know is what the maximum amount of nitrite or nitrate we might see should be. If we see higher numbers, it is a good bet something is wrong- usually testing errors, expired test kit reagents or the fact that judging the colors is subjective, One persons 2 ppm can be 2.5 or 1. 5 to another person. That is the drawback of our test kits and judging colors with our eyes rather than expensive lab equipment.

Finally, if the numbers are out of line on the high side. It can mean that something has gone off track during cycling. A good example would be having low KH. The bacteria need inorganic carbon and in our tanks they get a lot of that from the things that make up KH in a tank (carbonates and bicarbonates). But pH being stable also relies on these same things in large part. The cycle itself creates acid and, over time, these can build up and cause the pH to drop suddenly.

Wow brilliant! Thanks loads for this. Some of it I knew from watching his video's yesterday, but some of this I did not know. I appreciate you taking the time. Since I did the original post on this thread, I have gone with the fishless cycling route. My Dr Tim's One and Only should arrive this evening from Amazon. I have already started adding the ammonia, but using API Quick Start instead. I shall start using the Dr Tim's tonight. Thanks again.

 

[Byron]

A comment on API Quick Start. This product, like all the others except for Dr. Tim's One and Only and Tetra's SafeStart. does not contain the nitrifying bacreria needed to "cycle" an aquarium. The bacteria species were identified by a team of scientists of which one was Dr. Tim Hovanec, and the formula in the two products mentioned are the necessary bacteria and under patent. None of the other products have them. Dr. Hovanec also did a study on several so-called "bacteria supplements" including API's Quick Start, and he found they did nothing beneficial. The API did speed things up but only by two days, compared to not using it. Dr. Hovanec suggested that the two-day help was most likely because the bacteria in this product would add biological matter.

I know what API claim, this:

API® QUICK START nitrifying bacteria allows for the instant addition of fish, as it immediately starts the natural aquarium cycle with beneficial bacteria, which converts toxic ammonia into nitrite, then into harmless nitrate to help prevent fish loss in your tank.​

They list the bacteria in this product as Nitrosomonas eutropha and Nitrobacter winogradski. Below isthe Abstract from the scientific study identifying the true bacteria species.

Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to other members of the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated that Nitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the subdivision of the class Proteobacteria (e.g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in these samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.​

You can read the entire paper free here:

Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria

Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the α subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[AlexT]

A comment on API Quick Start. This product, like all the others except for Dr. Tim's One and Only and Tetra's SafeStart. does not contain the nitrifying bacreria needed to "cycle" an aquarium. The bacteria species were identified by a team of scientists of which one was Dr. Tim Hovanec, and the formula in the two products mentioned are the necessary bacteria and under patent. None of the other products have them. Dr. Hovanec also did a study on several so-called "bacteria supplements" including API's Quick Start, and he found they did nothing beneficial. The API did speed things up but only by two days, compared to not using it. Dr. Hovanec suggested that the two-day help was most likely because the bacteria in this product would add biological matter.

I know what API claim, this:

API® QUICK START nitrifying bacteria allows for the instant addition of fish, as it immediately starts the natural aquarium cycle with beneficial bacteria, which converts toxic ammonia into nitrite, then into harmless nitrate to help prevent fish loss in your tank.​

They list the bacteria in this product as Nitrosomonas eutropha and Nitrobacter winogradski. Below isthe Abstract from the scientific study identifying the true bacteria species.

Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria closely related to other members of the genus Nitrospira. Nucleic acid hybridization experiments with rRNA from biofilms of freshwater aquaria demonstrated that Nitrospira-like rRNA comprised nearly 5% of the rRNA extracted from the biofilms during the establishment of nitrification. Nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belonging to the subdivision of the class Proteobacteria (e.g., Nitrobacter spp.) were not detected in these samples. Aquaria which received a commercial preparation containing Nitrobacter species did not show evidence of Nitrobacter growth and development but did develop substantial populations of Nitrospira-like species. Time series analysis of rDNA phylotypes on aquaria biofilms by DGGE, combined with nitrite and nitrate analysis, showed a correspondence between the appearance of Nitrospira-like bacterial ribosomal DNA and the initiation of nitrite oxidation. In total, the data suggest that Nitrobacter winogradskyi and close relatives were not the dominant nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in freshwater aquaria. Instead, nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria appeared to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.​

You can read the entire paper free here:

Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria

Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the α subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I think, if I am interpreting correctly, some of the other products (not sure on API) are able to speed up the process of converting ammonia to nitrite, but that's it! You are then stuck in nitrite hell after that (as if you were using no supplement). One of the posters earlier discussed this with me (Essjay, I think). Thanks for all of this interesting information, especially the links to the source. Appreciate it.