Don't Change Filter During Fish-in Cycle?

[Thomas-Hawk]

Hello All,

I've been reading a lot about cycling, and I've learned that most of the "good" bacteria that takes care of the ammonia and nitrites live in the filter media. So... if you're supposed to change your filter every two to four weeks (the manufacturer of the filter we have says this) won't that disturb the cycle process? And, even after the tank has cycled, won't it still cause the tank to go through a mini cycle when the filter is changed?

We have a Marineland Eclipse 12 gallon tank with the Bio-wheel filtration system. I know the bio-wheel never is supposed to get changed, but the other filter, the one with the blue spongy material that also contains the carbon, is supposed to be changed every two to four weeks. We have been going through a fish-in cycle since December 29th, 2008, with two platys. About a week and a half ago, we had a bacteria bloom with cloudy water and film, and ammonia levels shot up to over 8 ppm. I freaked out, and we replaced the blue spongy filter because it was looking pretty nasty, and it had been about 4 weeks. I had read that over saturated carbon can actually put more toxins in the water. Is this true?

So, since then, the cloudyness has cleared up. I've been doing daily 20% water changes since then, and the ammonia has went down, but is still measuring around 4ppm. (We're using the liquid Freshwater Test Kit from API) During the bloom, the nitrites went from 0 to around .25, but have since dropped back down to 0. Nitrates are measuring around 10ppm. pH is 7.6

Because of the filter change, are we due for another bacterial bloom and cycle? Should I do a large water change to try to get the ammonia levels down? The fish seem to be acting normally and aren't showing any signs of stress.

It's been almost 5 weeks, and our tank has not cycled yet, and we're getting a bit frustrated and impatient. I don't know if I or my 8 year old son is being the more impatient one.

I truly appreciate anyone reading this long post, and any advice that is given.


Regards,
Tom

 

[rabbut]

Well, yer gerneral advice with a filter in a cycle is to let it well alone, unless it cloggs with rubbish. This is because any cleans and/or replacements of media will set-back the cycle This said, carbon is only effective for a few days at the most in your "advearge" tank, and hence needs regular replacements to work well. Realy, whether you need to replace that cartridge at all depends on why you are running carbon. Personally, I would remove the carbon from the cartridge part, and add more sponge in it's place

You should never replace more than 1/3 of you media in one go, as it will caurse a mini-cycle in an established tank. You need to avoid replacements all together in the cycle itself

Ammonia is very toxic, and high levels of Ammonia can actually stall your cycle. With 4ppm of ammonia in there, I'm supprised the fish you have are still with it. You need a large, 90%ish, waterchange to check those levels before they do damage. You may need to follow up with another 50% waterchange, to get Ammonia down to 0.25ppm.

All the best
Rabbut

 

[OldMan47]

Welcome to the forum Thomas Hawk. You are absolutely correct. If you were foolish enough to change your filter media every 2 to 4 weeks you would be setting yourself up to start a new fish-in cycle that often. You would actually be at about day 1 or 2 of a new fish-in cycle. I clean my filter whenever it starts to slow the water flow. By then the filter media is becoming too plugged up to get good flow and without adequate flow you do not get as much biological filtration and, in extreme cases, you can actually damage the filter's impeller.

Note: I did say clean, not replace. The way to clean a filter is to shut it off during a water change and use a bucket of old tank water to rinse out the filter media before pouring out the old tank water. That filter then goes right back into the filter and gets used over and over until it wears out. I have several filter cartridges from my cheap hang-on-back filters that are many years old and still going strong. My canister filters never get new media except for the tiny bit that acts as a final polisher before the water returns to the tank. That bit is less than 1% of the biological capacity of the filter but is at least 10% of the media responsible for removing the finest of particulate from the water. Since I want clear water I am willing to risk removing 1% of the biofilter to get it.

 

[backtotropical]

Hi Tom and to TFF,

Unfortunately, many filter manufacturers recommend changing the filter media on a regular basis, when it's actually the worst possible thing you can do.

That said, carbon media does need to be changed because as you say, if it becomes saturated it can leach toxins back into the water. Most members on here recommend that the use of carbon media for every day filtration is not required and is much better replaced with a normal sponge for bacteria to grow on. I recommend that is the action you should take.

Don't ever replace your sponges until they are literally falling apart and no longer up to the job. The sponges are where the bacteria live and replacing these sponges is throwing away the bacteria we work so hard to get.

What Rabbut suggested is very important. You need to do a large water change now. Ammonia is lethal to fish and must be removed. You should aim to keep ammonia (nh4) and nitrite (no2) levels below 0.25 at all times, and the best way to do this until your filter is cycled and can do it for you, is by water changes. You can basically ignore nitrate (no3) levels for now as it is relatively non-toxic compared to ammonia and nitrite.

Unfortunately, the reason your filter isn't cycling is because you took the advice of the filter manufacturer and changed the media. Outrageoous but true....

If you have any more questions, don't be afraid to ask.

Cheers

BTT

 

[Thomas-Hawk]

Hi Tom and to TFF,

Unfortunately, many filter manufacturers recommend changing the filter media on a regular basis, when it's actually the worst possible thing you can do.

That said, carbon media does need to be changed because as you say, if it becomes saturated it can leach toxins back into the water. Most members on here recommend that the use of carbon media for every day filtration is not required and is much better replaced with a normal sponge for bacteria to grow on. I recommend that is the action you should take.

Don't ever replace your sponges until they are literally falling apart and no longer up to the job. The sponges are where the bacteria live and replacing these sponges is throwing away the bacteria we work so hard to get.

What Rabbut suggested is very important. You need to do a large water change now. Ammonia is lethal to fish and must be removed. You should aim to keep ammonia (nh4) and nitrite (no2) levels below 0.25 at all times, and the best way to do this until your filter is cycled and can do it for you, is by water changes. You can basically ignore nitrate (no3) levels for now as it is relatively non-toxic compared to ammonia and nitrite.

Unfortunately, the reason your filter isn't cycling is because you took the advice of the filter manufacturer and changed the media. Outrageoous but true....

If you have any more questions, don't be afraid to ask.

Cheers

BTT

Thanks for the warm welcome and responses thus far!

One question regarding the filter system I have: it is the Bio-wheel system, and most of the good bacteria are supposed to accumulate and grow on the wheel, not the other sponge/carbon filter. Is this not correct?

Also, just for grins, I decided to test my tap water for ammonia. Straight out of the tap, it measures between .50 and 1.0ppm! So, when I've been doing water changes, I've been introducing more ammonia to the tank! Is there something I can do to eliminate the ammonia in the tap water before adding it to the tank for water changes? I'd like to get this figured out before I do a large water change.


-Tom

 

[tom_os]

i am doing a fish in cycle and i am 38 days into it. i have not replaced any filter media, but its just taking ages for me

i feel for your impatience!

 

[OldMan47]

You are partly right about the bio-wheel. Once the filter is fully cycled, there will probably be enough bacteria in the wheel to keep the ammonia at a reasonable level. Until you reach that stage, every bit of biological filtration that you part with will delay the day that your fish get to live without ammonia and nitrites in their water.
I also live with high ammonia in my tap water, actually it sounds like the same amount. It just means that the best you can hope to do with a water change is to get the tank down to what you see in the tap water. In my case I never see that ammonia in my tank because it is first diluted by the ammonia free tank water and then the filter gets rid of what is left very quickly.

 

[Thomas-Hawk]

i am doing a fish in cycle and i am 38 days into it. i have not replaced any filter media, but its just taking ages for me

i feel for your impatience!

tom_os,

What type/size of tank and filter do you have? I'm just curious if you're using a bio-wheel based system, and having similar issues as us.


-Tom

 

[LauraFrog]

Your other option with ammonia in the tap water is to use a product like Ammo-lock. There are several of them that neutralise ammonia in the water. Some of them convert ammonia into a non toxic form and the biological filter will still remove it. Others remove the ammonia so the bio filter can't do anything to it. If you use a product like this, you'll have to choose one that converts it into a form the biological filter can use or it will stall your cycle. API Ammo-lock is ideal for this.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

for now while ammonia in the tank is higher than from the tap you'd still be diluting things by doing a water change, it basically just changes the goal posts for you, your goal is to get the water in the tank to the same content as the tap water. 0.5ppm, it's not ideal but it's the best you're going to manage for now just with water changes.

as above you do get some products which dechlorinate and 'remove' ammonia, you could use one of these. Now they don't actually remove ammonia though, what they do is convert it to ammonium, this can still be used by the bacteria but is less harmful to the fish. ammo-lock as mentioend above is one, prime is also recommended if you can get it.

i'd also recommend you remove the carbon filter cartridge and replace it with more bio media, another sponge is ideal if thats easy for you.

then just as many large water changes as you can do to get ammonia down to 0.5ppm, then leave the filter media well alone unless you notice a drop in flow from the filter.

 

[Thomas-Hawk]

Your other option with ammonia in the tap water is to use a product like Ammo-lock. There are several of them that neutralise ammonia in the water. Some of them convert ammonia into a non toxic form and the biological filter will still remove it. Others remove the ammonia so the bio filter can't do anything to it. If you use a product like this, you'll have to choose one that converts it into a form the biological filter can use or it will stall your cycle. API Ammo-lock is ideal for this.

Thanks for the reply!

Yes, in fact we've been using Ammo-Lock to convert the ammonia into the "safe" form to help the fish get by. I have read quite a bit of controversy surrounding Ammo-Lock and if it interferes with cycling. According to the manufacturer, it isn't supposed to, but there are quite a few folks who swear that it does. I'm tending to believe the manufacturer in this case, especially since a couple of you on this forum have recommended it, knowing that I'm trying to get through a cycle.

Also, it appears we are going through another bacteria bloom, as last night and this morning the tank was getting cloudy again. Tonight I plan on doing a large (75% or more) water change, and then treating with Ammo-Lock. Does anyone know how long I can safely leave the filter turned off without killing the good bacteria on the filters? I'm just worried that the filters are going to dry out while I'm doing that large of a water change.

Thanks again for everyone's help thus far!

-Tom

 

[Thomas-Hawk]

i'd also recommend you remove the carbon filter cartridge and replace it with more bio media, another sponge is ideal if thats easy for you.

Miss Wiggle,

Thanks for the reply. Any ideas on how I can do this? The filter media that is specially made for my filter comes with the spongy material sewn onto the top of a tray with carbon in it. Here's a link to the filter media so you can understand what I'm trying to say:

http/www.petfooddirect.com/store/product...EwklCjCWR2RJVRW

The picture shows the top spongy material pulled back, but it's not designed to do that, as I think they're showing it that way to demonstrate where the carbon is.

So, what can I do? Is there some filter media that I could buy and cut to size? And, just to be sure: I really don't need any carbon at all?


-Tom

 

[Miss Wiggle]

sponge can just be cut down so go buy a big standard pond filter sponge, then this can be cut down to size and it'll last your fishkeeping luifetime probably!

the confusion is that there's two products called ammo-lock. i think one is 'ammo lock' and the other is 'ammo-lock' or something daft like that.

the liquid one is fine, is converts ammonia to ammonium. the crystal one absorbs ammonia and stops it from getting to the bacteria and consequently interferes with the cycle.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Tom and welcome to TFF!

You need not be overly concerned when you remove your filter to clean or work on it. A filter that's not running but has tank water in it can sit for at least 5 hours, probably longer, without the colonies being measurably killed off. I've done this myself. And when water is removed from the filter during cleaning, the bacteria won't dry out too much for that period. When you get to that stage when you're cleaning your filter (I know you're not there now) just be sure to squeeze the sponges out in tank water (never tap water) and swish any trays of loose media in tank water also. I'm not sure if people tend to swish a biowheel through tank water or whether they just leave it alone, probably doesn't matter much.

By the way, I too was quite shocked at all the fairly radical differences in advice I found when I joined and started reading here as compared to hearing from manufacturers and retailers. I've since become quite convinced that the melting pot of advice here from the many aquarists here with all sorts of levels of expertise, including some very experienced hobbyists, is just light years better and more practical. I was very observant about my tropical fish years ago and watched them have all sorts of problems. Now, years later, from the advice I've learned here I've found my fish to be vibrant, alert, colorful and constantly in a the sort of ideal state of behaviour that I only sometimes observed back then. It feels weird at first, all this custom switching around of media and watching of chemical levels, but in the end its the real thing!

Good luck and I hope you get your questions answered and enjoy your stay,

~~waterdrop~~