drobbyb
Bowhead
No, you missed the point. If you want a scientific answer, get it yourself. We aren't going to do all the work for you. Do it yourself, lazybones 
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ChilliPepper
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In answer to your original question - it is UNLIKELY that a RTBS will get on with the Red Line Torpedo's in the long term as 180L is not enough space for all to get along harmoniously. RTBS are very territorial and as they get to 6", the same as the Barbs (of which you need at least 6), it is really pushing the capacity of a 180L tank.
Why don't you do some searching of Google? Have a read of this for example http
/www.fishlore.com/Profiles-RedTailShark.htm for the RTBS, and this http/www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.php?genus=Puntius&species=denisonii&id=177#top for the Barbs.A lot of fish keeping is about using common sense, whether you agree or not. Finding out the maximum adult size of a fish before buying it is considered good practice, in fact researching any animal before purchasing it is "common sense". Surely you can see that seven fish which get to 6" is not right in a 180L/3ft tank. You don't NEED scientific evidence to back this up, however there are many experienced keepers who agree.
4ft/255L may be the minimum, however most fish keepers would agree it is better to go even larger if you have space/money. This means the fish are happier, live longer, act more naturally and look better.
There are loads of other smaller species of fish you can choose from to go in your tank by the way.
cant believe that this has been bought back to life i take it in the month gap between responses you have not been finding scientists to confirm that torpedo barbs arent suitable for a 180L tank or even doing some of your own research for that matter........
an ology, in fact yes i do have an ology but that doesnt make me a freshwater/marine fish expert. ology covers many many things not just science!
i think "the point" has long gone and with enough people trying to give their advice on a sociable forum where people do that kind of thing you know...!
never mind IC1 put some in your tank if it means so much to you but in a non scientific reply - your tank is not big enough
IC1, i cant believe that other non scientists are giving out the same advice on a more recent topic as we all have on your topic..... how unthoughtfull of these non scientists with no scientific evidence
http
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/104399-roseline-shark/how unthoughtfull of them
Mattlee,
Your problem is this: You make statements which you cannot back up, you then get defensive and use the 'common sense' statement when asked for further info in support of you're: 'your tank is not big enough' 'advice'.
Why can a fish that will get to ~5-6 inches not be housed uncruelly in a 1m tank?
What is the reasoning behind the extra 1 foot, i.e suddenly acceptable in a 4 ft tank and all is well?
Obviously the bigger the better to replicate natural environment.
If you don't know, just say and stop the pretence
Your problem is this: You make statements which you cannot back up, you then get defensive and use the 'common sense' statement when asked for further info in support of you're: 'your tank is not big enough' 'advice'.
Why can a fish that will get to ~5-6 inches not be housed uncruelly in a 1m tank?
What is the reasoning behind the extra 1 foot, i.e suddenly acceptable in a 4 ft tank and all is well?
Obviously the bigger the better to replicate natural environment.
If you don't know, just say and stop the pretence
Timmy_Bee
Fishaholic
Morning all. This looks like a fun post!
(for the record, i am over 17 and English)
I have to say, if you cut away his overly agressive anger, IC1 has a point. I suggest he goes to the scientific forum where people will be happy to explain their views.
As for me - i have no idea.
(for the record, i am over 17 and English)
I have to say, if you cut away his overly agressive anger, IC1 has a point. I suggest he goes to the scientific forum where people will be happy to explain their views.
As for me - i have no idea.
waheyMattlee,
Your problem is this: You make statements which you cannot back up, you then get defensive and use the 'common sense' statement when asked for further info in support of you're: 'your tank is not big enough' 'advice'.
Why can a fish that will get to ~5-6 inches not be housed uncruelly in a 1m tank?
What is the reasoning behind the extra 1 foot, i.e suddenly acceptable in a 4 ft tank and all is well?
Obviously the bigger the better to replicate natural environment.
If you don't know, just say and stop the pretence
welcome back IC1 its been a while again..... once again you are back and have bought this topic back to life with you havnt you been doing scientific tests or questioning real scientists about your little mission to prove these fish are ok in a small tank? 
if you have done the research for these fish then you will find that they move very fast and therefor need as much space as poss. a 3ft tank is not big enough for them to let loose if you like. just saying that a 6 inch fish isnt suitable for a tank of this size in itself is pretty stupid as there are many fish that get to this size but not all swim as fast as the torpedo barb does. as i think we stated early on in this topic a jump from a 3 to a 4ft tank is quite a bit of diference in volume, its a third bigger and i dont think we need scientific proof to agree on this. having said that i have 6 of these barbs in a 4ft tank and i would say they will need more room when bigger as they are very active and fast. take a look at angelfish people say that a tank of less than 18 inches isnt tall enough for an adult angel. so if you have a tank of 13 inches, which is about the same in size difference to the 3 and 4ft tanks, is it ok to house an adult angel? i, and most fish keepers and common sense says no
going back to the barb and if you want comparing it to say a 6 inch pleco, the difference in behaviour is very different as the pleco will stay on the substrate and decor and not be very active and the barb will be in the middle/top area of the tank and swimming all over the place.so as you ask -
"Why can a fish that will get to ~5-6 inches not be housed uncruelly in a 1m tank?
What is the reasoning behind the extra 1 foot, i.e suddenly acceptable in a 4 ft tank and all is well?"
there are many reasons why it is better suited in a bigger tank. the activity of the fish, the size of the fish and its natural behaviour to name a few.
"you make statements which you cannot back up, you then get defensive and use the 'common sense' statement when asked for further info in support of you're: 'your tank is not big enough' 'advice'."
as we all know and you should by now i am not a scientist, im not sure what evidence you are looking for or maybe there is a hidden formular somewhere that no body has discovered as of yet. oooh, why dont you go and discover it and become a fish scientist genius 
or maybe just find that bit of COMMON SENSE that must be lurking within you. 
ill look forward to your next response, perhaps it will be another month before this is dragged up again but maybe by then you will have found your goal.....
maybe you will have found that hidden formular maybe you will have found some scientists 
maybe you will have discovered COMMON SENSE ill keep an eye out in october for this to be live again
here you go ive started your quest off for you 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/339295-can-any-scientists-help-this-person-out/page__p__2819126__fromsearch__1&#entry2819126
http
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/339295-can-any-scientists-help-this-person-out/page__p__2819126__fromsearch__1&#entry2819126
drobbyb
Bowhead
Well, there you go! Someone has done the effort for you. Wow, I am sure it took him less time to open the new topic (do the work for you, lazybones) than it did to type all that jabber above, but I suppose IC1 has won the battle, he got someone else to do the work for him.
i felt the op needed guiding in the right direction. i wouldnt say he has won the battle as i never looked at it that way just trying to advise someone that required help
was it really "jabber"
the work has just begun....... its now down to IC1 to find his holy grail
good luck IC1
VaegaVic
Fish Addict
Just to quickly weigh in here.
Everything said here was a complete opinion, 100%.
Until there is a regulatory body with powers to prevent people from abusing fish (which will never happen in the UK), people are going to repeatedly put large fish into small tanks, or at least until we can teach them all (even longer than never).
In terms of science behind it, there is none, it is simply observation.
Under UK law, Animal Rights Act 2006, all vertebrates must be able to express the 5 freedoms:
1. Freedom from hunger and thirst
2. Freedom from discomfort
3. Freedom from pain, injury and disease
4. Freedom to express normal behaviour - This is the one we are looking at here.
5. Freedom from fear and distress
Now, many members on this forum have repeated stated that the more water, the more natural the behaviour is of the fish, some interpret this as "happiness" others as just simply natural behaviour.
Now I'm not saying that a Torpedo barb can't go into a 3ft, after all, how old is this torpedo barb? Are we really saying that a 3 day old needs 4-6ft of room? Certainly not.
What I am saying though however, is that for a torpedo barb to express himself (or herself to be politically correct), a large fish of maximum size, (6 inches in this case), which is very active is going to need a large tank to be able to swim to it's heart's content or if you will, express it's natural behaviour.
Now there are no hard and fast rules here for this, but as I'm sure we're all agreed, the more water the better it is for active fish.
At the end of the day, there is no scientific proof that 4ft is better than 3 ft for a barb but, if you're keeping these fish in a confined space, under law you are obligated to make sure they are able to express themselves in the way they would do in the wild.
Hopefully this will now end this silly little debate and we can all get along with more important things, water changes for example.
Also, just as a side note, I'm English myself and I don't care for rudeness, regardless of humour or nationality.
Everything said here was a complete opinion, 100%.
Until there is a regulatory body with powers to prevent people from abusing fish (which will never happen in the UK), people are going to repeatedly put large fish into small tanks, or at least until we can teach them all (even longer than never).
In terms of science behind it, there is none, it is simply observation.
Under UK law, Animal Rights Act 2006, all vertebrates must be able to express the 5 freedoms:
1. Freedom from hunger and thirst
2. Freedom from discomfort
3. Freedom from pain, injury and disease
4. Freedom to express normal behaviour - This is the one we are looking at here.
5. Freedom from fear and distress
Now, many members on this forum have repeated stated that the more water, the more natural the behaviour is of the fish, some interpret this as "happiness" others as just simply natural behaviour.
Now I'm not saying that a Torpedo barb can't go into a 3ft, after all, how old is this torpedo barb? Are we really saying that a 3 day old needs 4-6ft of room? Certainly not.
What I am saying though however, is that for a torpedo barb to express himself (or herself to be politically correct), a large fish of maximum size, (6 inches in this case), which is very active is going to need a large tank to be able to swim to it's heart's content or if you will, express it's natural behaviour.
Now there are no hard and fast rules here for this, but as I'm sure we're all agreed, the more water the better it is for active fish.
At the end of the day, there is no scientific proof that 4ft is better than 3 ft for a barb but, if you're keeping these fish in a confined space, under law you are obligated to make sure they are able to express themselves in the way they would do in the wild.
Hopefully this will now end this silly little debate and we can all get along with more important things, water changes for example.
Also, just as a side note, I'm English myself and I don't care for rudeness, regardless of humour or nationality.
flix_cw
Fishaholic
This is a tricky one.
So many hobbies these days, when you get down to the nitty gritty, require a little scientific knowledge. Fish keeping is one of them. This doesn't mean you need a scientific background to learn.
However, since this is indeed a hobby, there is little money to fund scientific research. Even new drug research that can potentially help millions can struggle to find funding due to the fact that it won't be largely profitable.
I think fish keeping fits under that category. Randomised Controlled Trials require a lot of time, money, equipment, staff and subjects. Who is going to fund research to support whether a shoal of 6" fish can live "happily" (another subjective word) in a 3ft tank? I mean, i'm an osteopathic student (with a degree in Physiology) and even my profession struggles to come up with genuine RCTs to support certain methods.
Basically, what it all boils down to is that all you have to go on is anecdotal evidence. Personally, I believe personal experience is often far more valuable than any results written in a table and presented on PowerPoint to a panel of experts. Hardened scientists may beg to differ.
However, you're just not going to find hard scientific evidence for this sort of question, unless of course you're willing to part with the cash and set up a laboratory.
That said, I did see a post relating to research into cycling new tanks with bottled media, showing encouraging results too. So there is hope!
Good luck!
Edit: here's the link http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/339231-my-word-a-bacteria-in-a-bottle-product-that-works/ and the OP seems to be the very poster directly above this post. How funny!
So many hobbies these days, when you get down to the nitty gritty, require a little scientific knowledge. Fish keeping is one of them. This doesn't mean you need a scientific background to learn.
However, since this is indeed a hobby, there is little money to fund scientific research. Even new drug research that can potentially help millions can struggle to find funding due to the fact that it won't be largely profitable.
I think fish keeping fits under that category. Randomised Controlled Trials require a lot of time, money, equipment, staff and subjects. Who is going to fund research to support whether a shoal of 6" fish can live "happily" (another subjective word) in a 3ft tank? I mean, i'm an osteopathic student (with a degree in Physiology) and even my profession struggles to come up with genuine RCTs to support certain methods.
Basically, what it all boils down to is that all you have to go on is anecdotal evidence. Personally, I believe personal experience is often far more valuable than any results written in a table and presented on PowerPoint to a panel of experts. Hardened scientists may beg to differ.
However, you're just not going to find hard scientific evidence for this sort of question, unless of course you're willing to part with the cash and set up a laboratory.
That said, I did see a post relating to research into cycling new tanks with bottled media, showing encouraging results too. So there is hope!
Good luck!
Edit: here's the link http
/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/339231-my-word-a-bacteria-in-a-bottle-product-that-works/ and the OP seems to be the very poster directly above this post. How funny!there isnt really any scientific answer to prove you cant live your life in the space equivalent to inside a car walking around in circles for excersise yet we all know this is far from ideal
no scientist has bothered prove any such thing i dont think (that i know of) because of the common sense argument
no scientist has bothered prove any such thing i dont think (that i know of) because of the common sense argument
there you go scientific proof
^ perfect punchline to this post. i have just read from start to finish and that image has just tickled me!!
ic1 how are your torpedo barbs getting along?
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