Clown Loaches and Snails!

my turn to make a statement......

Arashi, those pics are priceless..... funny and entertaining. I agree with you that it is always fun to get pics of the way that our aquatic friends interact with eachother be it them being curious about each other even though it is just natural instinct.

Everybody else......

even though she said that she wasn't intending on feeding this snail to her clowns when are you going to get it out of your thick heads that even if she was it is her own perogitive to do so. just like me feeding other fish to my cichlids it is my perogitive and I will continue to do so. while it might not improve the quality of life for the feeder it does improve the quality of life for the cichlid. so who are you to be so quick to judge her on what she wants to do in her tanks.
 
That was sort of exactly my point to juan.... :nod: :/

But I've already been down this road and don't wish to return!!!

HAPPY DAYS ARE HERE AGAIN
THE SKY................

bla bla bla

:whistle: :whistle: :whistle:




:D
 
juanveldez said:
my turn to make a statement......

Arashi, those pics are priceless..... funny and entertaining. I agree with you that it is always fun to get pics of the way that our aquatic friends interact with eachother be it them being curious about each other even though it is just natural instinct.

Everybody else......

even though she said that she wasn't intending on feeding this snail to her clowns when are you going to get it out of your thick heads that even if she was it is her own perogitive to do so. just like me feeding other fish to my cichlids it is my perogitive and I will continue to do so. while it might not improve the quality of life for the feeder it does improve the quality of life for the cichlid. so who are you to be so quick to judge her on what she wants to do in her tanks.
I would have to agree with Juan and Silver. What she does with her fish is solely her business. I know a lot of you are concerned with the well being of her snail, but again... it is hers to do with as she pleases. I don't object though to everyone voicing their opinion. That's what a forum is for, regardless of people agreeing or not.

Also, I don't mean to call anyone out, but I don't think there is a need to hand out personal attacks. I don't think it is necessary. But that's just me and my opinion... :(
 
Ok then, I'm always glad to supply information when it's asked for. :D

First, you have to look at this from both a physical, and philosophical point of view.

Philosophically, you're assuming that conditions that harm us or some animals, are the same conditions that harm the "earth." Since we all think that life is a beautiful thing, I'm assuming that "earth" refers to not only the planet but life on this planet. However, even if you "chops down more trees, burns more tires, throws away more garbage, takes away animals environments" you're not even making a scratch in the variety of life on the planet. -_- Don't think that if we humans, or even every complex organism on the planet dies off, that life will not bounce back. Our egos just trick us into thinking that we're the most important organism on the planet. :D Also, remember that even a single species, can branch out into vast variety. All mammels have a common ancestor according to the fossil records. Give 1 species a chance, and life can flourish anew.

I'll use these examples you're giving me as my own examples, mostly from the physical perspective.

First, "chopping trees." Trees are essential to humans, and many animals because of the oxygen they generate. Rigt now we have an oxygen rich atmosphere, and life todaydepends on that atmosphere for respiration. However, this wasn't always so. The first organisms did not respirate, they were anaerobic bacteria.

Photosynthesis emerged in evolution before respiration did, and as photosynthetic bacteria and new primitive plants spread over the land, they generated huge amounts of oxygen. Now remember at this time, respiration wasn't used commonly! Meaning, Oxygen was a POISON to most of the organisms at this time! Plants were using up valuable CO2 and releasing huge amounts of poison into the atmosphere! This did cause a huge die out in anaerobic organisms, and the proof is with us today. The majority of the world's bacteria today can respirate, and purely anaerobic bacteria have taken only to dark and hidden environments where plants could not spread to.

The lesson? Organisms can quickly adapt to new conditions, even something as drastic as a complete atmospheric change. Right now, our waste is breaking down oxygen, and causing more radiation to flood the planet because the oxygen was also the shield that plants erected to protect the earth from it. In truth though, life could not have started with out radiation, and the first organisms emerged partly because of direct radiation from the sun. Life can continue without oxygen or protection from radiation; especially since photosynthetic cells have already evolved. If humans were to destroy almost all the atmosphere (which I don't even think we're capable of) and then die out, I garantee that some photosynthetic bacteria and plant species would survive, and would begin to rebuild the oxygen rich atmosphere. It would take a long time, but there is plently. Ten, twenty, a hundred million years to rebuild the atmosphere and repopulate the land with plants to make way for new animals is not so long for the Earth.

Next, "Burns more tires." Well, I can't really imagine a bunch of lemurs getting together to light up some tires. :sly: Anyway, same point here. Rubber, when burned, releases fumes that are toxic to humans, and other organisms. Besides, introducing new gases (even if not toxic), makes it much harder for organisms to respirate or use photosynthesis. Yet, these fumes are not toxic to all life, and the evolution process can find a way to use a new substance as easily as it learned to use oxygen. Many insect species respirate at a much slower rate than we do. They don't need an atmosphere that's perfect. Even humans can survive in places like LA with heavy smog. We just don't live as long. The length of time an organism lives is really in consequencial even to its survival as long as it successfully reproduces in the shorter amount of time. Organisms can and will adjust their bodies to worse conditions even without a change in DNA. Many will adjust better than humans do. Once again, if anything can survive, life will continue and flourish.

Third example, "Throw away more garbage." Ok, so what happens when I toss out garbage? There are serious reppercussions for many species, especially sea life. Birds, turtles, and sea mammels are caught or choked or strangulated by debris. More delicate species of fish and invertabrates die out from bad water conditions. Coral weakens from being blocked from the sun by garbage water born, or settled on its skeleton. However, it does not pause life for a second in the open water. Most species of deep sea fish are completely unaffected by our inability to clean up after ourselves. Whole ecosystems live around sea vents deep below that could care less about what happens to our garbage. These organisms can spread and adapt to conditions as well as any other, and are probably earth's last stand in case or disaster. Even if a meteor wiped our all terrestrial life, these ecosystems independent of photosynthesis would continue. There is a huge variety of life there; crabs, worms, fish, an abundance of life ready and waiting to create an entirely different world of life. This is speaking purely about aquatic life. Rats, insects, raccoons, and countless other species have already proven their ability to thrive amongst our garbage.

Fourth example, "destroy more animals habitats." Are you aware that ecosystem types are in constant combat? If one type of habitat is destroyed, a new one will appear. Take forest vs. flat lands. In several places on earth, the ration of forest to flat land is constantly fluctuating. Some organisms thrive in one, some thrive in the other. Both develope ways of life that try to strangulate out life necessary for the other.
Flat lands develope grass with tight roots, that try to choke out any chance for trees to grow. Furthormore, herbivors like buffalo, zebras, rabbits and ground hogs that have adapted to eating short vegatation. The grass has evolved so that it can survive even with its leaves being frequently ripped off by these herbivors, while the shoots of trees or other forest plants will be ripped up and killed under the same treatment. Flat lands will even produce creatures like elephants that will tear whole trees down if they do manage to grow. In fact, the large heards that destroy trees that try to grow in flat lands are a result of living in the flat lands. Hearding is the defense mechanism created by animals unable to hide amongst trees.
Forests also fight against flat lands. Huge trees block out the sun at lower levels, and choke out room necessary for grass. Some trees have even evolved poisons that will spread into the dirt and kill off the seeds of grass and weeds. Trees evolve to hug tightly, and thus choke out space needed by the large herding animals that are allies of the flat lands. Large herding herbivores unable to run easily between trees are easy prey to arboreal predators and predators adapted for the forest like jaguars, tigers, pythons, lynx, and even golden eagles. Thus herbivors in forests must be slim, quick, solitary; a life style that cannot cause large scale damage to trees. Such creatures, will furthor prevent invasion by larger herbivores by consuming much of the edible vegitation.
This exchange occurs even without human intervention. As humans cut back forest, grass spreads, and we move our cows in. A host of other herbivores and plains predators will also thrive as the jungle is cut back.
In Hawaii, where I live, rats and pigs cause serious damage to native life. The mongoose we introduced to kill the rats don't really harm the rats but instead have found a taste for native birds and their eggs. Even so, the pigs plowing through native plants will make way for new species, introduced or evolved, to take the place of the old. New birds will arrive, or evolve from the old, with defense mechanisms to fight against the mongoose' invasion. We don't want our native life to be destroyed, but there is no question that even if it is destroyed this island will still flourish with life because other species will replace the old.
Basically, when you destroy the environment for one species, you make way for the environment of another. No individual species, or even community of species, is crucial for the continuance of life on earth. Thus, an exchange of environments cannot be said to be "destroying earth."

I'll brb and finish writing, but right now I have to take my sister to ballet. seeya. :D
 
well, continueing where I left off.

Communities of organisms are not static. They do not "obtain a balance," even organisms that have lived together for a long time continue to strike aggressively against each other for their survival. Take the giraffe and the trees they feed from. The giraffe adapts a long neck from which to feed off of the tree's leaves. This in itself is a result of environmental pressure in the form of heavy competition on the savanah for grass. The tree responds to the pressure the giraffe applies to it, by adapting thorns. The giraffe responds to this pressure by developing a tough, flexible tongue and lips to move around the thorns. The tree developes a heavy poison that begins to enter the leaves after the giraffe begins to graze. Next, the giraffe developes the instinct to move from tree to tree to avoid the poision. The tree in turn developes a hormone that causes all the trees in the grove to produce poison all at once when a giraffe begins feeding. The giraffe then developes greater endurance so it can move from grove to grove with ease. These are things that have already happened, but you can bet that many giraffe and trees died along the way. It's still a race being fought today. Point is, that all life is adapting, all the time. No species is completely static, even animals that haven't changed much, like sharks have gained instincts over time regaurding new prey and threats.

And, humanity is far from the only thing that applies pressure to organisms. We are not the only species that causes extinction, and we are no more destructive than a world wide ice age, a heat fluctuation of the sun, a global virus, a global atmospheric change or a change in the earth's movement, all things that have happened to the planet in the past. Species go extinct all the time, but life goes on and creates new variety.

Also, humanity was always causing species to go extinct. People think its such a recent thing, but its not. There used to be zebra and tigers in north america, there used to be armored sloths the size of trucks in south america, there used to be huge predatory birds in asia, there used to be Wooly mammoth, there used to be dodo, there used to be giant marsupial wolf-like creatures in australia. Humans destroyed these species, and not because of our new technology, our waste, our mess. These species were destroyed by spears, arrows, clubs, and superior attack plans. So much extinction, and yet Earth is still filled with variety.

I plan on writing a conclusion, but I have to go pick up my mom, ttyl. :D
 
I don't even know where to start with you, tear-scar - animals do not actively "adapt" to their surroundings - not how natural selection works. In fact, your giraffe example mirrors examples used by Lamarck, whose theories about evolution and natural selection do not hold water given what we know about NS and Evo today. I would recommend reading "Darwin for Beginners" by Miller and Van Loon if you want an easy to digest overview of the subject.
 
tear-scar said:
There used to be zebra and tigers in north america, there used to be armored sloths the size of trucks in south america, there used to be huge predatory birds in asia, there used to be Wooly mammoth, there used to be dodo, there used to be giant marsupial wolf-like creatures in australia.  Humans destroyed these species, and not because of our new technology, our waste, our mess.  These species were destroyed by spears, arrows, clubs, and superior attack plans.


I'll give you the dodo, and perhaps the mammoth (the mammoths extinction force is still highly debated. A respected paleontologist and favorite professor of mine, Dr. Peter Ward, agrees that humans were the main cause of the extinction, but this is not a commonly accepted fact as of yet ) but other than that you should really check your facts before you make comments like this.
The large, predatory birds of which you speak lived in the Paleocene and the Eocene - millions of years before the first hominids. Zebras and tigers are no longer here because of climate change. I believe the "wolf-like" animal you refer to is "Tasmanian thylacine", and it is believed to have gone extinct due to competition with the dingo.

I would like to also point out that of these examples, only the dodo, T. thylacine, and the mammoth co-existed with modern humans, Homo sapien sapien.

Spreading this kind of false information is worse then letting people be ignorant about the subjects, in my opinion.
 
tear-scar said:
First, "chopping trees."  Trees are essential to humans, and many animals because of the oxygen they generate.  Rigt now we have an oxygen rich atmosphere, and life todaydepends on that atmosphere for respiration.  However, this wasn't always so.  The first organisms did not respirate, they were anaerobic bacteria. 

Photosynthesis emerged in evolution before respiration did, and as photosynthetic bacteria and new primitive plants spread over the land, they generated huge amounts of oxygen.  Now remember at this time, respiration wasn't used commonly!  Meaning, Oxygen was a POISON to most of the organisms at this time!  Plants were using up valuable CO2 and releasing huge amounts of poison into the atmosphere!  This did cause a huge die out in anaerobic organisms, and the proof is with us today.  The majority of the world's bacteria today can respirate, and purely anaerobic bacteria have taken only to dark and hidden environments where plants could not spread to.
First, organisms respire, not "respirate".

Photosynthesis and photorespiration go hand in hand.

"and as photosynthetic bacteria and new primitive plants spread over the land, they generated huge amounts of oxygen."


Not quite. All of the first plants evolved in water.

And many, many animals lived in the oceans before any land plants or animals lived. The ocean was full of multicellular life in the Precambrian - land was not colonized at all until the Silurian.


You are correct that oxygen is poison to anarobes, but they did not have a "massive die out". Certainly, some species died, but many lived, either in less oxygenated environs or in a very important, brand new state - as one of the players in a new symbiosis. You can thank anarobes for the ATP produced - they now live in your cells as mitochondria.
 
"Third example, "Throw away more garbage." Ok, so what happens when I toss out garbage? There are serious reppercussions for many species, especially sea life. Birds, turtles, and sea mammels are caught or choked or strangulated by debris. More delicate species of fish and invertabrates die out from bad water conditions. Coral weakens from being blocked from the sun by garbage water born, or settled on its skeleton. However, it does not pause life for a second in the open water. Most species of deep sea fish are completely unaffected by our inability to clean up after ourselves. Whole ecosystems live around sea vents deep below that could care less about what happens to our garbage. These organisms can spread and adapt to conditions as well as any other, and are probably earth's last stand in case or disaster. Even if a meteor wiped our all terrestrial life, these ecosystems independent of photosynthesis would continue. There is a huge variety of life there; crabs, worms, fish, an abundance of life ready and waiting to create an entirely different world of life. This is speaking purely about aquatic life. Rats, insects, raccoons, and countless other species have already proven their ability to thrive amongst our garbage."


I don't know where you get the idea that photosynthesis does not occur in the oceans. Or that oceans can withstand the kinds of things you are talking about. The corals die, because they are symbiotically linked to algae species, and when their alga dies, so do they. Ocean life is a chain - the main primary producers in the ecosystem are phytoplankton, which are highly affected by our wastes - particularly increases of phospates. These increases cause algae blooms, which often choke out life in the area - from the bottom of the food chain down.
 
Anyway, I wasn't done. But I'll address some of the comments before finishing my say.

--> I don't agree that letting people remain ignorant is better than giving them a half-truth. Besides, can't you let a guy have a little fun? :sly: It's true that I left some facts out and allowed myself to wander around concrete facts a little bit; however I was just trying to keep it simple, as this is not really a forum for this topic. Thank you for correcting me; you're right, my examples were off. I'll admit I was lazy and decided not to do a massive research just for a small arguement on a public net forum.

--> I think I made it clear that photosynthesis DOES occur in the ocean (you read that paragraph and I actually mention that coral is seriously damaged by our waste, and the reference to the sun is because I understand its symbiosis with algae), and a many life forms are dependent on the cycle between it and photorespiration; BUT there are communities of organisms that live completely independently from it. Of course the ocean is highly affected by waste, and the basis of most of the food chains now is our phyto-plankton; but that's not to say this is the only possible existence for life. Who is to say, that the way life exists now, is the only way it could exist.

Which is why my point is still clear: that even if we seriously damage the way of life organisms follow today, it is impossible to suppose that we will cause enough damage to wipe out life on earth. It's ludicrous. Life is something much more tenacious than that. I don't think that just because my examples were not accurate at the technical level, that my point is any less stable.

Does that mean that we can go ahead and do whatever we want to the environment? Of course not. That would be suicidal. Being reckless about the environment will cause serious catastrophe to the way of life of earth today, and that includes OUR way of life. What's at stake, is our survival, and the survival of organisms that share the same time, and have come to the same point. There is a connection that is valuable, and one that we must sustain.

However, it annoys me when people claim that humans are some type of super power that can undo everything that has been done by sheer clumsiness. neh? :/ The world does not revolve around us, and it doesn't tremble at our feet.

Yeah, this thread is officially ruined. :whistle:

Anyway, shall we discuss the original topic, the point that I have pushed (which still has not been challenged), or shall we just drop it? :S


PS -- thanks though, I think I will pick up that book. This discussion has been interesting and I think I might be inspired to gain a deeper education in biology and the fossil records. :nod:
 
tear-scar said:
Does that mean that we can go ahead and do whatever we want to the environment? Of course not. That would be suicidal. Being reckless about the environment will cause serious catastrophe to the way of life of earth today, and that includes OUR way of life. What's at stake, is our survival, and the survival of organisms that share the same time, and have come to the same point. There is a connection that is valuable, and one that we must sustain.

However, it annoys me when people claim that humans are some type of super power that can undo everything that has been done by sheer clumsiness. neh? :/

Yeah, this thread is officially ruined. :whistle:

Anyway, shall we discuss the original topic, the point that I have pushed (which still has not been challenged), or shall we just drop it? :S


PS -- thanks though, I think I will pick up that book. This discussion has been interesting and I think I might be inspired to gain a deeper education in biology and the fossil records. :nod:
I agree with you on the "humans as superheros" idea. And you're right, this topic is completely off-topic (except I learned about snails in a class taught by, you guessed it, Peter Ward :lol: )

I stand by my contention that half-truths can be a dangerous weapon, but that's neither here nor there....

I'm thrilled that you want to read the book - it's even presented in a kind of cartoony format - very cool and informative. My Intro to Physical Anthropology teacher used it as one of our texts. :lol:

And while I agree that is very unlikely that humans would be able to wipe all other organisms off of the planet, I don't agree that the proliferation of species or complexity of life we have now would necessarily be regained. I am starting more and more to subscribe to what is known as the "Rare Earth" theory. Although Peter and I do not agree on everything, we do on this. :nod:

An exerpt from an interview with the late, sorely missed, evolutionary biologist Steven Jay Gould describes this theory -

"Doug: Ward and Brownlee argued in Rare Earth that complex life is actually very uncommon.

Gould: It probably is. In fact I had breakfast with Peter Ward today. He said the reason why he called the book Rare Earth - not Unique Earth, but Rare Earth - is that he's not fighting the notion that there's intelligent life elsewhere. But it's going to be very rare, even on that subset of planets that develop life at all, and that's probably right. "


From the inside cover of Peter's book about the Rare earth theory:

"Ever since Carl Sagan and Frank Drake announced that extraterrestrial civilizations must number in the millions, the search for life in our galaxy has accelerated. But in this brilliant and carefully argued book, Ward and Brownlee question underlying assumptions of Sagan and Drake's model, and take us on a search for life that reaches from volcanic hot springs on our ocean floors to the frosty face of Europa, Jupiter's icy moon. In the process, we learn that while microbial life may well be more prevalent throughout the Universe than previously believed, the conditions necessary for the evolution and survival of higher life---and here the authors consider everything from DNA to plate tectonics to the role of our Moon---are so complex and precarious that they are unlikely to arise in many other places, if at all. "

You are right - life would go on, and it is unlikely that humans could change the environs enough to cause the Earth to become inhospitable and very difficult for life - unlikely, but not impossible.
 
I do not believe I had ever mentioned that humans could wipe out Earth, I only stated we are the most damaging from what I see.

Also, I don't have the time or cares to comment on your half guesses like a newbie gives advice like it were fact. All I can suggest to you is to read some books.

I personally don't care whether or not we could destroy Earth or not, I just stated that we do the most damage out of living things. Oh yeah, and thanks for all of your guessing and not providing any facts, just murmer from your lips.

Anyhow, my last post so the floor is forever yours. I find your postings with cation far more entertaining.
 
subopposite said:
Anyhow, my last post so the floor is forever yours. I find your postings with cation far more entertaining.
C'mon, you know you want to play... :rofl:
 

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