Chemistry problem on a cycled tank

[FishGuest5123]

You are free to disagree but that means you have no idea of fish physiology. I already explained that every substance in the water gets inside the fish; water is continually entering the fish via osmosis through every cell, and into the bloodstream. Aside from the biological fact that this is detrimental, the combination makes it even more so. Every responsible knowledgeable aquarist will tell you not to add substances that are not essential.

Prime does not add bacteria, and it does mess with the biology. Stability is not necessary if the tank is cycled; but ity is always possible you are disturbing the nitrifiers with all these chemicals. Adjusting pH with fish in the tank is very dangerous. You need to let the chemistry sort itself out so it will be stable, meaning the GH and pH. If for some reason adjustment is then needed, the only way to deal with pH safely is to adjust the GH and KH as the pH is part of this.

You should not have any need to reduce ammonia, nitrite and nitrate...if you do, that means you have compromised the nitrification cycle.

I agree 100% with Byron. If your tank is cycled, then there is no need to remove ammonia. Nitrite, etc. the beneficial bacteria in the established cycle does this. Byron is also correct in the fact that Prime contains no beneficial bacteria. It simply dechlorinates and binds ammonia and nitrites for 24 hours. Good luck!

 

[Byron]

I need to get the Danio's out of their current tank because I believe they nipped the back and lower fin off of one of my new Gourami's - the little Danio's are supposed to be quite peaceful as are the Gourami's. Then I read the other day that the Danio's are known for occasionally fin nipping - and they just keep swarming around him - there is nothing more to bite off that's within their capabilities I think - but is he going to die from this or will the fins grow back? Makes me sick to look at him and he's so sedate now I almost thought he was dead. He's also obviously stressed by the constant swarm of Danio's. Sometimes of of his "buddies" sits with him but I don't get the feeling that most fish are particularly compassionate - I could be wrong.

Danios are shoaling fish. This means they "expect" a group of their own, and it should be as large as you can manage in the tank, but never less than six or seven. A lone danio, or two, or three, or four...will be stressed solely because there are not more of them. This is programmed into the fish's DNA. A scientific study a couple of years back looked into this shoaling/numbers issue, and found the species in their study had one common response to being in numbers fewer than five--increased aggression. Fish have few ways to "lash out" when frustrated, and becoming aggressive is the usual, though sometimes the reverse occurs and the fish just wastes away. Moving them to a larger tank (and a 29g is fine) means you can add more. Now, I should caution you...adding more might result in serious injury to the new ones. The effect of the stress caused by only having two of them is not reversible. Sometimes it works to move the fish and add more at the same time, but not always.

Second point is that danios are too active for sedate fish, and I think that was discussed previously.

There is one Powder Blue Gourami that would get a lot more eating done if he stopped worrying about which other Gourami's might be eating - he just follows them around constantly and bangs them in the head if he thinks they are getting some food. Major bully - I have never read where they were the least bit aggressive. But I seriously doubt he bit the fins off of the other Gourami - there mouths are so tiny, actually smaller than the Danio's.

All male gourami are territorial, much the same as cichlids. Different species will exert this more or less depending, but it is a trait in the fish's makeup. There is no way around this. Some species take this out on other gourami of their own, some on other gourami species, and some even extend it to other fish. One member reported a female Blue Gourami (female, not male) that killed off several non-gourami fish in the tank.

Oh - interestingly enough - the habitants of my first tank were from a list of "good fish for the beginner" where the author lists about 20 different groupings of fish that get along well with each other - well he was WRONG.

Just as fish store staff may not provide accurate advice, so too many web sites. Anyone can set up a site and promote him or herself an "expert." I rely on sites where I know the owner either personally or by their scientific credentials.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Deanasue - you said no need to remove ammonia but I have ammonia in the.25-50 range - reason unknown
I have Nitrites of 1.0 and the Nitrates have been as high as 50. This all happened after my tank cycled and values of everything was zero for quite a while. I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of the ammonia and nitrites since they shouldn't be there. I have now done 4 water changes, Just going to check now and see if I've finally solved the probek

The I replaced my deceased Danio's with 6 new ones I have a school of 7.

As far as the Gourami's that is such a shock that they can be bullies when I read two different BOOKS on my Kindle that said these groups were very peaceful - authors are supposedly people in the field for 30 yrs or more. Just like they both neglected to mention the Danio's like to nip fins. I probably would not have purchased either species if I had been told correctly - I feel so bad about the missing fins - will he/she ever grow these back?

 

[Byron]

Fins that have been nipped will usually grow back if the nipping was confined to the rays and not down onto the caudal peduncle.

The ammonia I would not worry about, yet anyway, but do they add chloramine to your source water? This is often the source/cause of a minimal ammonia reading as here.

The nitrates can be controlled, if they are occurring within the tank from the organics as opposed to being present in the source water. I believe it was said the source (tap) water is zero nitrate, unless I'm thinking of another thread.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Did another smaller water change with a new tool that gets the gravel a little better - unfortunately fills up a bucket of water and I wasn't paying attention and it overflowed. I was not happy but got over it.

Better test this time: NO Ammonia found, now theoretically that should have made the Nitrite value slightly higher but it stayed the same as it's been forever at1.0, Nitrate value dropped from 10 ppm yesterday to 5 ppm today.

Got my KH and GH kits - what a royal pain and unclean instructions - any way I added 5 drops of the test solution to each 5 ml water testtube and they turned the appropriate color. When you compare how many drops you added to the little chart they give you - my tank is at 50-100 ppm on both measures - this puts them in the category where it's good for tropical fish. Good thing since that is what I have.

So I'm going to say this is good enough even though I have a nitrate reading of 1.0 - just going to ignore that, and will start focusing on the other tank and getting it set up. Will start setting up tonight. This house was built in 1960 and there are very few outlets - like 2 per room - 3 if your lucky Plus the outlets are two prong only so you have to get an adaptor to make them fit right. Then there is the fun of rinsing 5 lbs of black gravel until it isn't "dusty" anymore - then decorating and all the fun stuff. This should give the little crazy Danio's plenty of room to school and no fish to bite the fins off of.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Oh thanks for the good news about the fins being eaten off - it's severely depressed or in fear and hiding, He does eat some but I have to make sure it blows over his way - he won't leave his cave.
- They do add chloramines to our source water
- They do not add nitrates

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

The fish is clearly dying laying on his side at the bottom of the tank. I am going to euthanize him somehow

 

[Byron]

- They do add chloramines to our source water
- They do not add nitrates

The chloramine explains the ammonia, nothing to worry about.

Nitrates if present would not be deliberately added (nitrate is a serious issue for humans as well as fish, especially pregnant and nursing mothers. Nitrate in the tap water would be caused by agricultural runoff.

The nitrite/nitrate at 1.0 ppm, is this nitrite or nitrate? You use both terms.

Got my KH and GH kits - what a royal pain and unclean instructions - any way I added 5 drops of the test solution to each 5 ml water testtube and they turned the appropriate color. When you compare how many drops you added to the little chart they give you - my tank is at 50-100 ppm on both measures - this puts them in the category where it's good for tropical fish. Good thing since that is what I have.

If this is the API kit...it is easiest to see the colour change if you hold the tube vertically over a sheet of pure white paper or similar, and without the cap so you look down through the tube of water. At the very first indication of a change, that is your number; it does not have to turn dark green or whatever.

Again assuming the API test...five drops is 5 dGH (or dKH). That is soft water. So avoid any livebearers and fish requiring moderately hard or harder water. Most SA species and SE Asian species will be fine. Tetras, hatchetfish, pencilfish, rasboras, gourami, loaches, cories, etc.

 

[Larsonsar]

I lived in Topeka for 13 years and kept fish for 7 years. I had 8 aquariums. I was stubborn and determined to learn how to manage the impossible water chemistry in that town. I had people literally from all over the world trying to help me solve the chemistry problems. I had a half a dozen 55 gallon food grade barrels in my sunroom with a variety of water experiments on going, guided by nearly daily assistance from experts. I also had the assistance of a wonderful aquatic veterinarian in Kansas City. The results of 7 years were very disappointing. Tiger Oscars were the only species I found that could survive longer term in Topeka water and even they were significantly stressed and vulnerable to disease. The PH was 9-11 and the KH was very low. If I buffered it up, PH also went up, off the charts and I would lose fish. The RO water also had a PH of 9-10. Any method of modifying PH, and we tried everything, resulted in a devastating rebound. We tried Muriatic acid in barrels with no success. Experts all over the world took up this challenge with no results. Their ultimate analysis was that the Topeka Water Utility had irrevocably broken the water chemistry in a way that could no longer be modified whatsoever. They suggested that I give up fish keeping unless I wanted to try reef tanks, or perhaps experiment with certain of the African Cichlids. I left Topeka 4 years ago, but it doesn't sound like much has changed with the Topeka Water Utility since then. I hate to pass on such dismal information and I sincerely hope that perhaps things have changed in Topeka and that you find a way to solve these problems that I was unable to, inspite of infinite Scottish stubbornness and a lot of money. Good luck, I wish you the best and hope you will post your journey and your results here.

 

[Larsonsar]

The fish is clearly dying laying on his side at the bottom of the tank. I am going to euthanize him somehow

Clove oil is a very humane way to do it. you can add very small amounts to a bowl until they are asleep, and then the larger dose... so there is virtually no stress.

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Larsonar - thanks for such an encouraging post!! LOL - it does substantiate what I've been experiencing regarding my chemistry problems and Topeka water - so should I just give up trying to keep an aquarium? I hope not.

Byron - my apologies for the confusion - I was referring to Ntirites - so no mater what the ammonia is/was - the Nitrite remain the same. When I first cycled my tank, the ammonia would drop, the Ntirites would briefly go up, and then eventually convert to nitrates (ammonia would be 0, Nitrites would be 0 and Nitrates would go up - indicating I needed to do a water change. I would also adjust the ridiculously high Ph to somewhere between 7 and 8 and leave it at that. Following a water change, all values would be zero and I would know it was safe to add my fish (and it generally was). Even the Ph would remain steady. But then sometimes later after a water change the PH would go up so I would adjust it again gradually (with fish in the tank). I got good at estimating how many drops of Ph down to put in - with no harm to the fish. as far as I could tell. The secret was to do it gradually over several days. All would be good again. It wasn't until my third batch of fish that I really saw problems - and it was complicated by the behavioral issues of the Danio's driving everybody crazy and (I think) an over-crowded tank. They (I believe bit the fins off of my beautiful Dwarf Gourami).

Larsonar - I didn't have any clove oil on hand and it was getting very late - the fish was barely breathing when I pulled him out of the tank. He stopped breathing at that point. I shot him full of a small amount of my own morphine using an insulin syringe then I put him in a cup of ice water and then put him in the freezer - but I believe he was dead by then (I hope). I will get some clove oil to keep on hand.

I now have another 29 gallon tank. I need to move the Fin-biting Danio's out of my other tank ASAP. To the new tank I added a fair amount of gravel from my old tank hoping to trigger a nitrogen cycle. I also added several plants from my old tank. All values are still at zero (going to test again soon) . Given their destructiveness I'm going to move the Danio's to the new tank this evening and let them help cycle the tank. Not optimal but I don't want any more fins bitten off or just the chaos they are adding to the tank. I'll do that about 11 pm - 24 hours after I had the tank completely set up. Hopefully I won't kill the Danio's - they are supposed to be a very hardy species but I've lost 3 of my original 4, then added 6 - and that was when the behavioral trouble started.

Thank so much for all of you talking so much time to help me out - It is much appreciated!