Can Gravel Cause High Ph?

[Crito]

It is very confusing indeed, especially for a newbie. I have tested the water today and it scored between 0,25 and 0,5 in ammonia, nitrite still at zero, nitrate has gone up to 40. I am looking at the results and there's a big 'Eh?' in my head, we'll see what they say at the shop, I am not hugely optimistic :s
Thank you very much for taking the time to explain things to me. I have also taken a look at your Eternal Cycle and must say I was blown away by the beauty of it. May I ask how long have you been fishkeeping? I am at the very very beginning of it but holy bubbles! if eventually one becomes capable of achieving such great results then it makes it all worth it! You have a very good artistic taste as well

 

[fluttermoth]

Personally, I would take anything the shop tells you with a very large pinch of salt. Even the best shops often give out advice that is either very poor, or about 30 years out of date

 

[daizeUK]

Thanks very much Crito, I've been learning about fishkeeping for about a year and a half, got my first fish in March last year and got interested in aquascaping with a natural look shortly afterwards.  I am still making plenty of mistakes and learning as I go!
 
I agree with Fluttermoth, I would save yourself a trip to the LFS.  Even though they sound like an exceptionally good and knowledgeable shop they will not give you the best advice (e.g. fish food).  They will look at your results and say "still too much ammonia - not ready yet."  Your ammonia should be zero before you consider introducing fish.
 
Flutter is also right about getting some ammonia.  If you clean the fish food out of your tank and add some pure ammonia then you can control exactly how much ammonia you add and you'll be able to tell how fast the ammonia/nitrite is being processed.  Then you'll know exactly when your tank is suitable for fish.

 

[Crito]

 
second; your tank is going to be much too small for goldfish, or indeed any other coldwater fish, so you will need to get a heater and look at small tropical fish like Endlers, guppies (males only), ember tetras, microrasboras or possibly a single male betta. If you get the heater now, your cycle will go much quicker, as the bacteria multiply faster at higher temperatures.

Oh trust me, I am aware of the size issues. I have tried explaining it to the in-laws (they bought it) and even wanted to take it back to the shop but they think I am being unreasonable - if the shops sell those tanks then they must be OK. They say things like 'Oh come on, we used to keep goldfish in a bowl!' I am no expert, it's jolly hard to argue and I can't just say Don't be fools, shops don't care! My kid is 6, she is dreaming to have a goldfish so I am left with this practically toy thing, trying my damnest to make it work. If it doesn't then at least I can say I've done all I could, we either stop here or upgrade. But at the moment it is what it is, I am afraid

 

[daizeUK]

Perhaps you could take your daughter to the fish shop and show her the guppies, endlers and siamese fighters?
 
I know it can be difficult - the problem with goldfish is that they can live a very long time and grow VERY big.  They will quickly outgrow a 24 litre.  The people who used to keep goldfish in bowls often don't realise that goldfish can live for 20 years because they would quickly die.  Since you are taking steps to cycle the tank and you obviously care about them, I would expect your goldfish to easily live long enough where size will become a problem.

 

[Crito]

Yes, I hear you ladies. If we go we'll go just for fun. I have announced that according to my measurements we won't be getting fish today. It's just everybody thinks my concerns are, put it this way, greatly exaggerated. They laugh at me standing there with my test tubes 'Oh, just you look at this lab, hahaha' Arghh!
Do fish shops sell ammonia?

 

[fluttermoth]

I'm sure your daughter would be equally happy, or even happier with a betta (Siamese fighter). They're lovely fish for children.
 
I don't want to sound harsh, but it really would be very cruel to put goldies, even fancy ones, in a tank of that size.
 
Here's our thread on goldies; http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/417799-goldfish-for-beginners/
 
There'a nothing inherently 'wrong' with small tanks (I have a 23l Fluval Edge, although not running atm), but you do have to choose your stocking wisely.
 
Stick to your guns, even if everyone else thinks your a little bit mad! You're doing the right thing. Their way would lead to very unhappy, sick or even dead fish; not nice for anyone, and especially upsetting for kids.
 
I'm afraid fish shops don't sell ammonia; they rarely recommend fishless cycles, as there's no profit in it for them. You might be lucky and find they have 'Biomature' by Waterlife, which does contain ammonia; if not it's easily available online. Don't let them sell you any 'bacteria in a bottle' type products; they rarely work and still need an ammonia source.

 

[daizeUK]

For the first time I have to disagree with Fluttermoth - sorry! - but avoid BioMature at all costs.  I've used it and it caused my cycle to stall for months because it's difficult to accurately control how much ammonia you're adding.
 
Many people use this stuff http/www.amazon.co.uk/Kleen-Off-500ml-Ammonia/dp/B00755MEMA with great success.  Otherwise you can find pure ammonia at some Homebase stores.  You need a brand that does not froth when shaken.
This stuff also works very well: http/www.marineaquatics.co.uk/shop/dr-tims-ammonia-chloride-2-4oz.html
 
I have to say well done to you for doing your research before getting fish!  Most people don't bother and they just don't realise that fish have special needs regarding habitat and water quality, even goldfish.  Proper fishkeeping is part science and personally I enjoy that, although sometimes you have to put up with a bit of teasing - we've all been through that!

 

[fluttermoth]

For the first time I have to disagree with Fluttermoth - sorry! - but avoid BioMature at all costs.  I've used it and it caused my cycle to stall for months because it's difficult to accurately control how much ammonia you're adding.

That's okay! I have no experience with Biomature myself, I've just heard of people using it with good results. I'm happy to bow to your practical knowledge of the stuff

 

[daizeUK]

It's partly because the instructions that come with BioMature advise you to add too much ammonia and they also rely on your test kit to know when to stop adding.  Test kits are not always accurate enough to do this, as it turns out mine was highly inaccurate therefore the whole process failed.  It's far better to use a source of ammonia where you can calculate exactly how much to add in advance rather than relying on test results.
 
I have an idea which might work but only if you were interested in upgrading to a bigger tank within a few months?
Platies are a good hardy beginner's fish and you can get them in colours which look almost exactly like goldfish.  My favourite are sunset platies which appear very similar to goldfish, but they are tropical.
 
Adult platies will require a 2ft tank but for now you could buy two small females for your 24L as a temporary home, with the intention of upgrading them to a bigger 2ft tank later.  After getting a bigger tank the 24L tank could become a breeding tank for platy fry (platies are prolific breeders and almost guaranteed to have babies), which might interest your daughter.  Just an idea should you be interested in taking that route.

 

[Crito]

You are right, ladies, we don't have to have goldfish. What about guppies? We'll need a heater, I guess...

 

[fluttermoth]

What are the dimensions of the tank, OP?

 

[Crito]

It is 16"x10"x11" WxDxH

 

[fluttermoth]

Just about big enough for guppies, although Endlers would be a better choice, being that bit smaller; five or six guppies, or six or seven Endlers, all males.

Once you've completed the cycle and introduced fish, if everything is stable, you could look at adding a few freshwater shrimps

 

[Crito]

I am looking for bigger tanks on ebay As for this one, I think a few guppies/endlers will suffice. Would any heater do or are there any tricks to know?