Calling All Experts

[LionessN3cubs]

Okay,


There has been a rash of PH questions/threads including my own, so I wanted to ask/clarify.

Tap water should be tested for KH. KH determines PH stability correct? Tap water with a KH of 0 (like mine) needs help (I chose seashells). If a person has a decent KH and PH out of their tap, then they shouldnt worry about what the PH is during cycling OTHER THAN to make sure it isn't low correct? LOW ph makes bacteria go dormant and stalls cycling, but I've never seen anyone say a HIGHER PH does anything at all to the cycle?

I know for a fact that right now the PH in my CYCLING tank, is higher than both my tap water AND water I draw and dechlorinate for water changes. Dechlorinator raises my PH from 7 to 7.6. Whats in my tank right now is about 8 (my ammonia is only 2ppm btw). Stands to reason that if I were to add ammonia up to 4-5ppm, my PH would also increase.

That doesnt mean that I should test the PH in my tank right now and use that as a stocking reference for after Im done cycling correct? The question Im asking is: Does PH in a cycling tank determine stocking choices....OR.....should we be drawing buckets like for a water change, dechlorintating, and using a PH from that bucket to determine stocking PH? ASSUMING that KH is going to hold that PH steady of course.

The point is that from my understanding ...people who are cycling shouldnt worry about their PH unless its too low or has no KH and needs stabilized to PREVENT it from crashing to 6 or less correct?

Asking in case I put too many seashells in my tank and my PH goes higher rather than lower :::sigh:::

 

[fatheadminnow]

Okay,


There has been a rash of PH questions/threads including my own, so I wanted to ask/clarify.

Tap water should be tested for KH. KH determines PH stability correct? Tap water with a KH of 0 (like mine) needs help (I chose seashells). If a person has a decent KH and PH out of their tap, then they shouldnt worry about what the PH is during cycling OTHER THAN to make sure it isn't low correct? LOW ph makes bacteria go dormant and stalls cycling, but I've never seen anyone say a HIGHER PH does anything at all to the cycle?

I know for a fact that right now the PH in my CYCLING tank, is higher than both my tap water AND water I draw and dechlorinate for water changes. Dechlorinator raises my PH from 7 to 7.6. Whats in my tank right now is about 8 (my ammonia is only 2ppm btw). Stands to reason that if I were to add ammonia up to 4-5ppm, my PH would also increase.

That doesnt mean that I should test the PH in my tank right now and use that as a stocking reference for after Im done cycling correct? The question Im asking is: Does PH in a cycling tank determine stocking choices....OR.....should we be drawing buckets like for a water change, dechlorintating, and using a PH from that bucket to determine stocking PH? ASSUMING that KH is going to hold that PH steady of course.

The point is that from my understanding ...people who are cycling shouldnt worry about their PH unless its too low or has no KH and needs stabilized to PREVENT it from crashing to 6 or less correct?

Asking in case I put too many seashells in my tank and my PH goes higher rather than lower :::sigh:::

Yes, you KH does effect your pH.

If you KH is lower, say around 1,2 or 3, than your pH is more likely to fluctuate during the cycling process.

If you KH is higher than that, your pH is going to be more stable, and won't be so prone to fluctuate.

A pH around 6.6 is going to significantly slow down the bacterias ability to process ammonia and nitrite. If the pH continues to drop, lets say around 6.4-6.2, then you can safely say that the bacteria in your filter have gone "dormant" and will not process and Ammonia and Nitrite.

On the flip side, when the pH starts to go above 9.0, that is when there are other problems in the biological filtration system, and can kill off your bacteria.

Your pH does determine what fish will be more suitable for your tank, but it is sometimes hard to base your stocking possibilities off of your pH during a fishless cycle, due to the fact that you are consistently adding ammonia, which can alter your pH from time to time.

But you can still get a good idea what your stocking possibilities will be if you find all your pH reading throughout the entire process of your fishless cycle, and finding the average pH reading.

Also, a pH of 8.4 is going to allow the bacteria to colonize the fastest, as a pH of 8.4 is optimal for the colonization of bacteria growth.

So no, you do not want your pH to get up near 9.0, as this can start problems. You do not want your pH to get down to or below 6.6, as this will cause your bacteria to go dormant, and a higher KH is going to allow the pH to stay in one spot without jumping all over the place.

waterdrop will give you a more 'scientific' answer when he reads this...lol.

-FHM

 

[rabbut]

Just to pick up on FHM's not dout typo, pH is not measured in PPM. pH is a number only, and hence has no unit. It is a count of how many Hydrogen Ions there is in a mole of water. A Mole is basically a fixed number or atoms within the substance you are measuring... pH is mathematical short-hand for one times ten to the minus, therefore, pH 7 means 0.0000007 Hydrogen Ions per mole of water. Mind you, this is superficial to your question and I'm ranting a bit here

For general tropicals, don't worry about pH unless it's lower than 6.5, or above 8. Ignore the water in the tank if you are cycling. Ammonia is Alkaline, and puts upward pressure on the pH reading. Nitrite and Nitrate are acidic and put downward pressure on the pH reading.

Some fish do have particular hardness requirements (some argue pH too) and hence you should look into if the fish you are after are particular fussy to hardness requirements before purchase. (I tend to ignore pH measurements in most cases, when you read into the science of how fish balance osmotic and pH pressures you quickly realise that if pH is on the chart still, it likely isn't an issue to the fish, but hardness counts for a lot)

All the best
Rabbut

 

[waterdrop]

"waterdrop will give you a more 'scientific' answer when he reads this...lol."
No, that was a pretty good one that time FHM, with rabbut's corrections of course

The pH measurement that will give you more of a number to be thinking about for suitable fish will be your tap pH, not the pH of your tank during cycling. After you get fish your water should stay somewhat closer to that tap water value, assuming you do weekly water changes and their aren't other odd things going on. Of course there can still be things that will move the pH away from the tap value it started at but it just probably won't move as much.

And that leads to what rabbut said, which I agree with, that hardness is really the more important underlying thing. When pH is talked about its often really hardness that's involved.

Lioness, you asked about a zillion questions in there, lol, but as I read through it, most of your logic sounded correct.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[LionessN3cubs]

"waterdrop will give you a more 'scientific' answer when he reads this...lol."
No, that was a pretty good one that time FHM, with rabbut's corrections of course

The pH measurement that will give you more of a number to be thinking about for suitable fish will be your tap pH, not the pH of your tank during cycling. After you get fish your water should stay somewhat closer to that tap water value, assuming you do weekly water changes and their aren't other odd things going on. Of course there can still be things that will move the pH away from the tap value it started at but it just probably won't move as much.

And that leads to what rabbut said, which I agree with, that hardness is really the more important underlying thing. When pH is talked about its often really hardness that's involved.

Lioness, you asked about a zillion questions in there, lol, but as I read through it, most of your logic sounded correct.

~~waterdrop~~

Thanks waterdrop and all.

Haha. I know I asked a ton of questions...sorry bout that. My situation has me nuts. My tap ph is 7 but I can't go by that because when I add dechlorinator it bumps up to 7.6 every time so I have to go by that I think. Thats one of the things I NEVER see addressed here. The fact that even adding dechlorinator raises the PH, so the dechlorinated water PH is the one that should determine what kind of stocking a person can have. Like I'd LOVE to have a mollie tank, but I can't because I can't give them hard acidic water..at least not easily to maintain anyways. My tap water is soft. I can fix the soft with the shells, but then I can't give acidic because the shells make the PH rise.

Then I deal with the KH issue ..which is getting better since I added the shells...kh was 0 now its 3...a start at least. My KH is the biggest issue I have. I can't put fish in the tank until I get that stabilized because the same thing will happen to me that happened all this past year....fish died each and every time I did a water change because the PH I was adding didnt match the tank PH because the tank PH slowly drops and drops and drops....then I add a HIGH Ph with water change. Killed all my fish

 

[waterdrop]

You know, OM47 and Laurafrog could probably do a more in depth discussion with you about the possibility of a good mollie habitat. I personally find mollies a little too bothersome to overcome their obvious contrast and beauty in a community tank. To my mind (and perhaps some would laugh, maybe I should too, haha) they are a bit of a stealth problem. They masquerade as "easy beginner livebearers," when in fact they have some water requirements, at least if you want to really do it right, that are usually pretty different from most of the other fish you are trying to keep, if its a community tank.

It at least sounds like your slower, steadier path to a higher KH is now moving you in the right direction with respect to part of your water fundamentals. I'll be interested to hear how that comes along. I consider four degrees to be the "hinge point" for KH. Below that the changes are just too fast, whereas at four and above you have much more time to act and pH is considerably more stable.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[LionessN3cubs]

You know, OM47 and Laurafrog could probably do a more in depth discussion with you about the possibility of a good mollie habitat. I personally find mollies a little too bothersome to overcome their obvious contrast and beauty in a community tank. To my mind (and perhaps some would laugh, maybe I should too, haha) they are a bit of a stealth problem. They masquerade as "easy beginner livebearers," when in fact they have some water requirements, at least if you want to really do it right, that are usually pretty different from most of the other fish you are trying to keep, if its a community tank.

It at least sounds like your slower, steadier path to a higher KH is now moving you in the right direction with respect to part of your water fundamentals. I'll be interested to hear how that comes along. I consider four degrees to be the "hinge point" for KH. Below that the changes are just too fast, whereas at four and above you have much more time to act and pH is considerably more stable.

~~waterdrop~~

I wish I could have gotten a bigger tank...Im not happy with a 10 gal as its too limiting. But, since its what I have to work with...:::sigh::::

Mollies are gorgeous, but I wouldnt pick them if I could find another type of fish I like. Selection here is pretty limited. Platys, mollies, guppys, maybe a few others.

 

[paulbr1]

Hi, I'm not sure what your LFS's are like over there, but in the UK most LFS will order what you want (within reason) which really helps when you have done your research and then cant find what you have chosen!!

Paul.

 

[OldMan47]

There are lots of other livebearers that I have been exploring Lioness. Most of the wild types should really be kept in single species tanks to avoid troubles, they are not guppies in their habits. For a nice fish in a small tank,you might try endlers. I enjoy mine enough to use one as my avatar. As WD said, the problem with mollies is that they are so darned easy if you have the right water, which I lucked out with. They are a real curse if you have the wrong water, I did plenty of cursing when I worked with them in different water. To have good success with mollies, they need a little room to swim and it is best if they have at least semi-hard, high pH water. You could get there if you are willing to have lots of crushed coral keeping your tank water hard but you need to ask yourself what else you like to keep. Some African rift lake fish like their water hard and lots of common and less common livebearers do too. The typical angels, rasboras, cories, zebras, neons, barbs, etc. that many people have, do not do nearly as well in hard water. I love to work with my livebearers but I don't try to do it with soft water. With that kind of water, I would probably focus on dwarf cichlids like the rams I can't have or the discus I can't have or even the apistogrammas that I can't have. They are all lovely fish with as nice personalities as my livebearers but they would love water more like yours.

 

[waterdrop]

A really nice post there by OM47. That probably goes to the bottom line of "fish/preferred water" questions! Going to file that one away for myself.

Lioness, you asked about a zillion questions in there, lol, but as I read through it, most of your logic sounded correct.
~~waterdrop~~

OK, here's some of my little charts/thoughts related to topics you've mentioned....

Here's a summary of pH ranges and A-Bac/N-Bac growth:

pH below 5.5 = possible danger of bacteria die-off
pH 5.5 to 6.2 = cycling process stalled or stopped
pH 6.3 to 7.0 = slow beneficial bacterial development
pH 7.1 to 7.9 = faster beneficial bacterial development
pH 8.0 to 8.4 = optimal/fastest bacterial development
pH 8.5 to 8.9 = too high, slower bacterial development
ph above 9.0 = possible danger of bacteria die-off

The ammonia oxidizing bacteria will consume ammonia in either the ammonia or ammonium state,
there are no toxicity considerations during fishless cycling.

Hardness Categories:

0 to 4 __dH_ 0 to 70 ___ppm Very Soft
4 to 8 __dH_ 70 to 140 _ppm Soft
8 to 12 _dH_ 140 to 210 ppm Medium Hard
12 to 18 dH_ 210 to 320 ppm Fairly Hard
18 to 30 dH_ 320 to 530 ppm Hard
Higher __________________ Very Hard


GH - General Hardness - Mainly Ca and Mg ions:
- If someone says "Fish prefer "hard" or "soft" water", its GH, not KH, they mean.
- These ions won't boil out.

KH - Total Alkalinity (also called Carbonate hardness or Temporary hardness):
- Mainly Carbonate or Bicarbonate ions
- KH is the "buffer" for pH changes
- These ions can be boiled out and are what forms "limescale"

GH & KH together:

- General Hardness is Permanent Hardness plus Temporary Hardness

- Hardness vs. Buffering, a source of confusion:
Hardness is a product of mainly calcium and magnesium ions,
and buffering is produced mainly by bicarbonate and carbonate ions.
Hard water is *usually* well buffered and soft water is *usually* less buffered.
Its possible though, given different quantities of these different types of ions,
to have hard water that is poorly buffered or soft water that is well buffered.

- Another source of confustion:
The word "Alkaline" and the word "Alkalinity" are different!
Alkaline refers to solutions that are Basic (ie. have high pH)
Alkalinity refers to buffering.
They are totally different words with an unfortunate similarity.

~~waterdrop~~
edit: to incorporate Dave/Aaron's correction re Permanent Hardness

 

[Bobtastic]

GH & KH together(note that GH is the sum of both GH and KH)

Is that a typo ~wd~?

 

[drobbyb]

GH & KH together(note that GH is the sum of both GH and KH)

Is that a typo ~wd~?

In most cases, no that isn't a typo. That's how it's measured.

 

[aaronnorth]

pH below 5.5 = possible danger of bacteria die-off
pH 5.5 to 6.2 = cycling process stalled or stopped
pH 6.3 to 7.0 = slow beneficial bacterial development
pH 7.1 to 7.9 = faster beneficial bacterial development
pH 8.0 to 8.4 = optimal/fastest bacterial development
pH 8.5 to 8.9 = too high, slower bacterial development
ph above 9.0 = possible danger of bacteria die-off

my pH is usually pH6-6.5, due to CO2 injection and i dont get a reading of ammonia. As far as i am aware my bacteria function perfectly well, and healthy fish.

Ok so i have plants but surely if my bacteria slow, stall or stop then the ammonia would be detectable? They cant use that much ammonia and once it gets above 0.5ppm they dont use it as a source of Nitrogen anymore.

For some reason i dont buy into pH crashes and the like, i know lots of people who run tanks with CO2 injection, and 0dkh but their pH remains constant According to the information that gets passed around on here the pH should of crashed, it should be up and down, dead fish, dead bacteria... but nothing.

My advice... dont worry too much.

Thanks.

 

[Dave Spencer]

...note that GH is the sum of both GH and KH....

Are you sure WD? Substituting A for GH, and B for KH we get:

A + B = A

GH = temporary hardness + permanent hardness.

Dave.

 

[aaronnorth]

...note that GH is the sum of both GH and KH....

Are you sure WD? Substituting A for GH, and B for KH we get:

A + B = A

GH = temporary hardness + permanent hardness.

Dave.

i thought i hd posted that in my above reply but here it is again:

Total hardness (GH) is the total number of multivalent cations in water and canbe split in to 2 sections: temporary and permanent.
Temporary Hardness (KH) is the amount of multivalent cations that are carbonates and bicarbonates.
Permanent Hardness is the amount of multivalent cations that are everything except carbonates and bicarbonates,