Brown Algae

[HappyGeorge]

Hi guys

Well the dreaded brown algae has struck.

So far my research from the net has shown me lots of conflicting stuff.

There is the not enough light answer and the too much light answer?

My tank is never in direct sunlight, is in a north facing room and lights are on for a maximum of 8 hours a day lighting is T8 powerglo bulbs 2 x 40W.


There is the not enough oxygen/filtration answer?

360 litres of water with 3500lph turnover, one of the filters being an internal U4 with a top Venturi output running, so loads of surface agitation.

There should be plants?

Will it help, most people seem to agree that the minute amount of nutrition needed for bacterial growth is hardly likely to be sucked up by a few plants, I should add it's a Malawi set up so no plants at the moment and limited options.

If you leave it, it will eventually go away

Hmmm really?

Water quality

Did a 20% change on Tuesday chemistry prior to change was the same as now, and it has just tested at pH 8, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 20ppm, Phosphates between 1 and 2.5 tricky to tell on the test kit. These readings are the same as water direct from my tap.

So is there an answer? Am I wasting my time scrubbing it off, I did remove loads on Tuesday but left one rock covered as some sources suggested not trying to remove it all and leaving a patch, it is now back with vengeance on more surfaces than before.

Please, please please any suggestions?

 

[M.R Otter]

the brown algea appears due the nitrit level. it is not likely that algea eaters like some cichlids and pleco eat the brown algea I suggest you do more water changes and make sure to cut the amount of light in the tank.

 

[HappyGeorge]

the brown algea appears due the nitrit level. it is not likely that algea eaters like some cichlids and pleco eat the brown algea I suggest you do more water changes and make sure to cut the amount of light in the tank.

Thanks for that maybe I should have stated that the problem started when I was using very little light, I was working nights and the tank light was on for less than 2 hours a day when the algae first appeared, and as for nitrites they have been zero for 4 weeks now, although there are some Nitrates but they are 20ppm from the tap so can't do much about that. Nitrites were 0 for 2.5 weeks before any algae appeared.

This is one of the answers I found on internet,

It sounds very much like you have a Brown Algae problem. This type of algae is somewhat different from your normal green type because brown algae is usually diatoms and is also an indicator of too little of light and high nitrates.

but can't seem to find any lab tests or chemical explanation of the processes of getting rid of them, most of the scientific stuff I am finding refers to 2 seperate groups of Diatoms, one group uses photosynthesis as an energy source and therefore light levels are an issue. The second group of diatoms use dissolved nutrients from organic matter.

So maybe I have answered my own question in so far as there isn't an answer, without knowing which kind you have the answer is likely to be either too much light or too much organic matter but not both together. The issue being that when there is either insufficient light or nutrients they can stay dorment for long periods and resurface as soon as conditions are favourable.

So lights off and starve the fish, would seem to be the coverall answer, still can't find where the not enough light issue comes from though.

 

[aaronnorth]

still can't find where the not enough light issue comes from though.

It isnt true, how can a short photoperiod possibly lead to more algae growth? Limiting the photperiod actually helps to combat algae,

Diatoms are common in new setups due to ammonia spikes - these may be undetctable on a hobbyist test kit as they measure safe levels (0ppm) for fish, not the actual levels. Obviously there has to be some NH3 there other wise the nitrogen cycle wouldnt work.

Plants use ammonia as a Nitrogen souce so yes they do help.

Diatoms have a life cycle of approx 4 weeks, as does green spot algae (GSA), so if you leave it alone and dont wipe it off then it will die.
The reason it goes away is because the ammonia apikes calm down once the tank has matured.
I understand cichlids tanks are heavily stocked anyway so it doesnt help with the extra waste being produced.


Some say it is caused by silica, however this isnt true, because most substrates are made up of silica molecules which are in for the lime time of the tank, however, the diatoms dissapear after usually no more than 3months, so why dont we get diatoms all the time?
Diatoms do use silica to build their cell wall,
silica feed diatoms, they dont cause diatoms.

How long has the tank been setup?
what size tank is it?
are the filters clean of debris?
Any debris/ organic matter on the bottom?

Thanks, Aaron

 

[HappyGeorge]

Think I'm getting this now.

No offence to anyone but we are all guessing based on the different things we have read aren't we? I have been leafing through some interesting stuff today about the requirements of different diatoms and the effects of light levels, every source says something different and I was wondering based on all the information I had submitted whether someone would have a practical answer.

The main problem seems to be the light issue, a shorter photoperiod could very well lead to less algae growth as firstly some of the diatoms do not require photosynthesis to grow/multiply and secondly a great many examples in nature do not thrive in strong, long periods of light and if diatoms do thrive in poor light then more light would be the answer.

If the Diatoms are capable of cell division, which they are, then why will they just die off in 4 weeks? Having stated that there is always enough ammonia present to support a colony and given that we know their requirement for life is either nitrogenous waste or light then why won't the infestation last indefinitely?

I still have a problem understanding why I would get an ammonia spike in a fully cycled tank which was handling 15ml of ammonia in 8 hours prior to the fish going in, and cant see that a single fish could produce significantly in excess of 0.1ml of ammonia in a day i.e enough to upset the filter.

Not being awkward or rude to anyone but everything that I have seen posted anywhere reads as a half truth to my inquisitive mind when laid against the biological facts available on the net in order to draw a conclusion it appears that we must make a number of assumptions first.

Think I will go with the general concensus and leave it and see where we go with it. Lights out

Thanks again for the input some interesting thoughts.

 

[Dave Spencer]

No offence to anyone but we are all guessing based on the different things we have read aren't we? I have been leafing through some interesting stuff today about the requirements of different diatoms and the effects of light levels, every source says something different and I was wondering based on all the information I had submitted whether someone would have a practical answer.

Personally, I experience diatoms in new planted set ups where I haven`t used Zeolite. Every time I start up with Zeolite, there are no diatoms, and every time I use Zeolite, they never appear. I found this result to be repeatable too, which leads me to believe that ammonia is a significant trigger for this type of alga. In an a cycling tank unable to rapidly process ammonia, there is a trigger for this type of bloom present for a considerable amount of time. It should disappear of its own accord once the nitrifying bacteria take hold of the situation. Diatoms are actually very easy to eleiminate from the aquarium whilst they still have the upper hand. Constant removal alongside regular large water changes keeps its numbers low, and create a hostile environment to its development.

Diatoms build a cell wall of silica, so silica that comes from the substrate or possibly the sealant in a new tank was thought to be the trigger, but I personally refute this idea these days. We all have silicates in our water, so there would be a constant supply for the diatoms via water changes, yet the diatoms disappear in these supposedly ideal conditions.

I don`t think low light is the key either, because plenty of people have experienced diatoms in higher light, but could be of help in a regime of physical algae and ammonia removal. Algae doesn`t like to be hassled.

If the Diatoms are capable of cell division, which they are, then why will they just die off in 4 weeks? Having stated that there is always enough ammonia present to support a colony and given that we know their requirement for life is either nitrogenous waste or light then why won't the infestation last indefinitely?

This is because the conditions in a new set up, or one where the biological filtration has been disturbed in a mature set up, have achieved the balance once again whereby the environment is once again hostile to the development of the diatoms.

I still have a problem understanding why I would get an ammonia spike in a fully cycled tank which was handling 15ml of ammonia in 8 hours prior to the fish going in, and cant see that a single fish could produce significantly in excess of 0.1ml of ammonia in a day i.e enough to upset the filter.

Have you disturbed the substrate in any way, releasing ammonia in to the water column? Can you think of anything you else you may have done to upset the balance between anmmonia presence in the water column and your filters ability to process it. Anyway, you are not going to defeat any type of alga with test kits. The trigger levels for ammonia are below those measurable by hobby test kits. The presence of various types of alga are testament to the presence of small amounts of ammonia in the water column, and way more accurate than any test kit.

Not being awkward or rude to anyone but everything that I have seen posted anywhere reads as a half truth to my inquisitive mind when laid against the biological facts available on the net in order to draw a conclusion it appears that we must make a number of assumptions first.

If your mind is truly that inquisitive, then you will be carrying out your own tests and observations in your tanks, and be able to draw your own conclusions. For a more scientific approach, you may want to take a look at the Barr Report, which is predominantely a planted tank forum, but the only place where any real thought appears to be put in to algae and its causes in the aquarium. If you subscribe, you will have access to the various papers written by Tom Barr, one of which is on diatoms.

Dave.

 

[aaronnorth]

Dave has pretty much asnwered your questions,

I still have a problem understanding why I would get an ammonia spike in a fully cycled tank which was handling 15ml of ammonia in 8 hours prior to the fish going in, and cant see that a single fish could produce significantly in excess of 0.1ml of ammonia in a day i.e enough to upset the filter.

as i said above, test kits measure 0ppm which is the safe level for fish. if you got a really accurate test kit for a lot of money, then you would actually see there is still NH3 in the water, despite the hobby test kit telling you it is 0ppm.

There has to be always some NH3 in the water, otherwise the Nitrogen cycle wouldnt work, so this shows us that 0ppm on a hobby test kit, isnt accurate enough for what we need.
The ammonia spikes are usually undectable.

Thanks, Aaron

 

[HappyGeorge]

If your mind is truly that inquisitive, then you will be carrying out your own tests and observations in your tanks, and be able to draw your own conclusions. For a more scientific approach, you may want to take a look at the Barr Report, which is predominantely a planted tank forum, but the only place where any real thought appears to be put in to algae and its causes in the aquarium. If you subscribe, you will have access to the various papers written by Tom Barr, one of which is on diatoms.

Dave.

Brilliant thanks very much, you have obviously have some experience of the problem and your explanations make a great deal of sense, as for the Barr report excellent stuff will start reading tomorrow, that is just what I am looking for, I just have to understand these things for myself as I know these things are never subject to a quick fix and a thorough understanding will help me defeat it.

Your time is appreciated Dave