Bristlenose genetics: long fin lemon vs snow white vs albino vs red

OutOfTheBlue

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I would like to learn more about dominant genes in bristlenose responsible for different:
A) eye colour
B) body colour
C) fin length

Information that I was able to find so far is rather patchy. I learned for example that brown is the default colour of bristlenose pleco and over the years breeders were able to create following varieties:
1) albino - Red eyes and yellowish body (sometimes covered with little gold like spots).
2) lemon - Either red or blue eyes. Yellow body, but the shade of yellow may differ between fish.
3) snow white - Dark (brown???) eyes, white body with a pink shade.
4) super red - dark eyes and dark orange (brick like) body
5 calico - dark eyes and brown and orange uneven pattern on the body

Each of those types can come either in long fin or short fin variety. Default option is short fin.

If anything I said above is incorrect, can you please correct me?

Questions:
1. Can calico plecos only result from crossing supper red plecos with regular brown plecos?
2. Are Super Red and Red plecos the same or does the name "super red" imply that the coloration is deeper?
3. Does crossing one of the types with another one always results in a mixture of fry in the same colour as either of the parents? For example if we were to cross shortfin snow white pleco with longfin lemon pleco, would we get 4 types of offspring? Lf lemon, lf snow white, sf lemon and sf snow white? Is any of those varieties more likely to occur in fry than other ones?
4. If there are different bristlenose plecos of different colours and fin lengths in the same aquarium, are they going to be more likely to chose breeding partners of the same type? For instance would albino be more likely to breed with another albino?
5. Is body and eye colour more likely to be inherited together?

If anyone knows an answer to any of my questions or offer any other related info, I would be very grateful!
 

ghyti

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I would like to learn more about dominant genes in bristlenose responsible for different:
A) eye colour
B) body colour
C) fin length

Information that I was able to find so far is rather patchy. I learned for example that brown is the default colour of bristlenose pleco and over the years breeders were able to create following varieties:
1) albino - Red eyes and yellowish body (sometimes covered with little gold like spots).
2) lemon - Either red or blue eyes. Yellow body, but the shade of yellow may differ between fish.
3) snow white - Dark (brown???) eyes, white body with a pink shade.
4) super red - dark eyes and dark orange (brick like) body
5 calico - dark eyes and brown and orange uneven pattern on the body

Each of those types can come either in long fin or short fin variety. Default option is short fin.

If anything I said above is incorrect, can you please correct me?

Questions:
1. Can calico plecos only result from crossing supper red plecos with regular brown plecos?
2. Are Super Red and Red plecos the same or does the name "super red" imply that the coloration is deeper?
3. Does crossing one of the types with another one always results in a mixture of fry in the same colour as either of the parents? For example if we were to cross shortfin snow white pleco with longfin lemon pleco, would we get 4 types of offspring? Lf lemon, lf snow white, sf lemon and sf snow white? Is any of those varieties more likely to occur in fry than other ones?
4. If there are different bristlenose plecos of different colours and fin lengths in the same aquarium, are they going to be more likely to chose breeding partners of the same type? For instance would albino be more likely to breed with another albino?
5. Is body and eye colour more likely to be inherited together?

If anyone knows an answer to any of my questions or offer any other related info, I would be very grateful!
I have Calicos. I don't know what crosses produced them originally but they breed true. Two Calicos produce all Calico offspring.

The Long fin gene is dominate. One long fin parent and one short fin parent will produce some longfin offspring.

The Albino gene is recessive. That means two doses are required to get an Albino. A brown without an Albino gene (B/B) and an Albino (a1/a1) will produce all Browns (B/a1)

I believe there are two different Albino genes a1 and a2. Must have two copies of the same one to get Albinos. I believe an a1/a2 fish will be a brown.

I only have the three, browns, albinos and calicos so someone else will have to help with the others.
 
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OutOfTheBlue

OutOfTheBlue

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This is very interesting. Thank you so much @ghyti ! Do your calicos live in the same aquarium as browns and albinos? If they do, have they ever displayed any interest in breeding with either of those?
 

ghyti

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No the calicos live in their own tank. Any Bristlenose will breed with any other so you have to keep them separate if you want to keep the strain. I do have an albino and a brown with one albino gene pair that give 50% browns and 50% albinos.
 
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OutOfTheBlue

OutOfTheBlue

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I do have an albino and a brown with one albino gene pair that give 50% browns and 50% albinos.

Are there offsprings always 50% brown and 50% albinos? Somehow I assumed that in mixed pairs the likelihood of getting an albino fry in subsequent "batches of fry" will be random.

Since I have your attention, could you please tell me if your calico pair tends to produce the same number of eggs as the brown/albino pair? Are the hatch rates similar? Of course any difference could be attributed to various non genetic reasons, but I'm still curious 🤔
 

DoubleDutch

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Are there offsprings always 50% brown and 50% albinos? Somehow I assumed that in mixed pairs the likelihood of getting an albino fry in subsequent "batches of fry" will be random.

Since I have your attention, could you please tell me if your calico pair tends to produce the same number of eggs as the brown/albino pair? Are the hatch rates similar? Of course any difference could be attributed to various non genetic reasons, but I'm still curious 🤔
If the brown parent doesn't have an albinogen (like this one) all offspring of a mixed couple will be brown, which even can occure when 2 albino parents having different albinogens / loci. All there offspring will be brown then.
 

ghyti

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Are there offsprings always 50% brown and 50% albinos? Somehow I assumed that in mixed pairs the likelihood of getting an albino fry in subsequent "batches of fry" will be random.

Since I have your attention, could you please tell me if your calico pair tends to produce the same number of eggs as the brown/albino pair? Are the hatch rates similar? Of course any difference could be attributed to various non genetic reasons, but I'm still curious 🤔
Over their lifespan 50% will be Brown and 50% will be albino. Any given spawn will vary somewhat but should always yield some of each. If you know what a Punnet square is you can use it to predict what you will get in the spawn.

I have not noticed any difference in clutch sizes or hatch rates for Albinos, Browns or Calicos. They all seem to be the same to me.
 
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OutOfTheBlue

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If the brown parent doesn't have an albinogen (like this one) all offspring of a mixed couple will be brown, which even can occure when 2 albino parents having different albinogens / loci. All there offspring will be brown then.
Let's consider a different scenario where all variables remain the same, except brown parent is now replaced with another colour. Would lemon parent without albinogen and albino parent produce only lemon offspring?
As @ghyti mentioned albino gens are recessive. Does this mean that all other genes responsible for colour are dominant? Therefore if we were to cross red/lemon/super white pleco (without albinogen) with albino pleco, we would never end up with albino offspring. Am I right or did I miss something?

What if we cross for example lemon with super white or red with super white? Which of those colours would be dominant in offspring?
 

DoubleDutch

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I think (but not defintely sure) that in all cases the fry will be brown (even if the parents aren't). Lemon is a Xanthic variaty btw. Like albinism but with yellow pygments / blue eyes.

Now a BN-specialist should jump in.
 

ghyti

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Let's consider a different scenario where all variables remain the same, except brown parent is now replaced with another colour. Would lemon parent without albinogen and albino parent produce only lemon offspring?
As @ghyti mentioned albino gens are recessive. Does this mean that all other genes responsible for colour are dominant? Therefore if we were to cross red/lemon/super white pleco (without albinogen) with albino pleco, we would never end up with albino offspring. Am I right or did I miss something?

What if we cross for example lemon with super white or red with super white? Which of those colours would be dominant in offspring?
I don't know the genetics for red/lemon/super white, but suspect that they all might be recessive. I think the brown (wild) gene is the only dominate color one, but I could be wrong. Brown gene and Albino gene are on different Loci, I don't know about red/lemon/super white. A cross between red/lemon/super white and albino would probably always yield browns. Any experts out there? Yes any parent without an albino gene mated with an albino will not produce any albinos. One gene from each parent is needed for the fish to express a recessive.
 

SomethingsFishy24

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I hope I can answer at least a part of your questions in about a week. I have a batch of eggs by an albino male and a blue eyed lemon female.

I lost my Albino female, so, I went on the search for a new girl (male seemed lonely as they had been together for years). I could not find a subadult albino female. I have no interest growing a batch out, I still have spawn in the grow out tank. Anyways, I was able to purchase a lemon pair.

I separated them because my albino male is a primo dad, he protects his babies in a giant South American cichlid tank. We have a system. It is pretty cool, I simply tap on his cave when the fry are 2 days old, he pops out(happily so cause now he can pig out on some greens) I net the front of the cave to block any startled fry and I take the cave and all to the grow out tank. All the more reason I want him to continue being a dad.

This is the first spawn, if it yields brown or mostly brown, I will continue to look for a sub adult albino female and put the lemons back together. Nothing against brown BN, I just like the gold and yellow hues as they are easier to see in a drift wood/planted tank.
 

ghyti

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Sounds like a good way to become famous similar to Dr. Norton and Angelfish genetics. Do a study to determine Bristlenose genetics. And then explain them to the rest of us. So far I think we have Brown (wild), albino 1, albino 2, calico, lemon, super red, snow white, as well as long/short fin. How they all interact would be good to know.
 

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