Brand New To The Hobby

[hillmar77]

Hi all,

Just joined the hobby about 3 weeks ago, and very excited to continue this hobby for a very long time! Got a 10 gallon tank top fin tropical tank kit as a present from my wife for my bday. Went to petsmart and asked how to start...they told me to let the water settle for a few days before comming back to choose your fish. Did that and went back to petsmart and they suggested zebra daino's, but only in 6's since they are schooling fishes. Once I added the fishes in, everything was fine till day 2...when one dyed. Start doing a mad search on the net on what was going on, and was introduced into the nitrogen cycle. Quickly bought up 2 bottles of prime water conditioner, and 30 percent water changes everyday for the past 2 and half weeks. I also picked up 2 bottle of water testers for everything...Im finally at 0 ammonia, 20 nitrate, 4.0 nitrite, soft water, 0 cholrine, 80 ppm alkalinity, ph 7.2 temps about 78. 4 of the 6 daino's made it throught the ammonia part and now im at the nitrite stage. Will continue to do my prime daily water changes till nitrite reads 0. ATM im deciding if i want to add a second power filter to my 10 gallon, Ive got my eyes set on the penguin bio wheel... So would running my top fin 10 power filter with the penguin bio wheel work well with my 10 gallon set up?

 

[Mo1959]

Hi Hillmar. Sorry I can't help with the filters as I don't know anything of these makes but I think your nitrite is dangerously high still for a fish in cycle. Perhaps be a good idea to do a really large water change, i.e. virtually empty the tank to the last inch or so. The recommended readings whilst you are cycling with fish are a max of 0.25ppm.

Regards Maureen

 

[crazychris]

Hi hullmar. Whether to add another filter is the least of your worries at the moment! Personally I wouldn't bother having two in a 10 gallon tank. Your immediate URGENT problem is that nitrite of 4.0. As Maureen says, that's VERY high still. You need to get that down to zero so I'd say do 50% water changes daily and keep testing. Or you can do a really big water change as Maureen has said. Your other readings seem fine and if you have zero ammonia that's great.

 

[hillmar77]

Thanks for the quick reply! I was worried about my fishes making it through the ammonia stage, with reading as high as 5.0 at some point. I've reduced the feeding to one every 2 days and also used a gravel vacuum once a week to clean up any left over food I don't see! I really have to thank the survival of my fishes to the Internet ( teaching me about water changes) and the use of prime! I really don't think my fishes would have survived without my daily water changes with prime!
What I've read about the penguin bio wheel is that it might help out the nitrite levels with my daily water changes! As it also states it controls ammonia and nitrite levels! I'm also guessing it will aid the Topfin 10 filter in reducing waste that is causing these high levels?

 

[Katty]

Actually, any aquarium filter will help "control ammonia and nitrite levels". The bio-wheel type filters might be a little more efficient at removing ammonia and nitrites because the wheels allow the bacteria living on the wheels more contact with oxygen (provided the wheels don't get stuck or break). If you add an additional filter like you were wanting to do it won't start processing ammonia and nitrite immediately. It'll take a bit for the bacteria to move over to the new filter so you won't get any immediate help with the cycle from another filter.

But running two filters can have other benefits though. Such as if one of your filters breaks or needs to be turned off and cleaned it's not a big disaster since at least you'll have one working filter. And you'll have added filtering power so clearer water.

Do you have a hood on your tank? I was wondering how you'd be fitting 2 hang on filters on your 10g through the little cutout slat. I tried to fit two 10g filters onto my 20g tall tank and they were so snug I couldn't do it.

If you have the money and the space to fit another filter there's no problem with adding a second one. But I think if you keep up with the work you're doing you'll be past the cycling part and as long as you don't overstock your tank it's not necessary to get another filter.

 

[OldMan47]

Welcome to the forum Hillmar.
You are doing tiny water changes by my way of thinking. There are two things to consider. The first is simple, both ammonia and nitrites must always be kept at less than 0.25 ppm. At 4 ppm of nitrites, your fish are having trouble getting enough oxygen in their blood streams. A water change only removes as much nitrite as the percentage of water change done. At 4 ppm and the need to reduce nitrites below 0.25 ppm, the needed change is 92%. With only danios in the tank you could probably drain to within 1/2 inch of the gravel and replace all of that water with fresh dechlorinated water. Some people will ask why not do 2 50% changes instead since it changes more water.
Now the second point. Large single water changes are easier and faster acting than multiple smaller changes. Let's do the maths. You do a 50% water change and after your nitrites are down to only 2 ppm, a great improvement. You do another 50% and now the nitrites are down to 1 ppm, much improved again but still far too high. It would take another 2 of those 50% changes to finally reach the desired 0.25 ppm. It is the reason many of us will recommend one big change when water chemistry is out of whack.
Things to keep in mind for a big water change.
A dry water heater that is still plugged in is a burned out heater.
A dry filter that is still trying to run will not die completely for a short time, but only for a short time, don't try that either.
The fish will always look much better after a huge water change if you take the time to temperature match the new water as close as you can judge with your hand and if you never forget the dechlorinator. If you miss one of those steps, the fish may not look good at all after a water change.

We have a good article here on TFF about fish-in cycling. I have a link to it in my signature area and it is well worth reading through. Please come back and ask more questions that come from your reading.

 

[waterdrop]

Totally agree with OM47 - your water changes are "wimpy" compared to what we would do, you are shortchanging yourself on the most powerful tool you have to help you during a fish-in cycling situation. I won't repeat the details as OM has outlined what to do. Use your Prime at about 1.5x what the instructions say for the return water and use your hand for temp matching. You don't want ammonia or nitrite(NO2) to go up and hit 0.25ppm before you can be home again for another water change.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[hillmar77]

Thanks again for the great tips.... I decided to find a better place for fish knowledge(given up on petsmart) and drove a little further to King Ed pet center (was referred to by alot of people in the local forums) here is a link to the store http/www.aquarticles.com/articles/travel/Norfolk_VAS_III.html
I told them my situation and spent a few hours there talking with the knowledgeable staff. They told me to try a 50 percent water change but use there gravel, and some of there filter pad in my filter. Also using 5X the dosage of prime to detoxify the nitrite to protect the fish. They also suggested that I set up a new power filter to help out my system so there is a less of a chance of it going through a mini cycle later on in the future. They told me to change the filter once a month on one of them and rotate to the other filter the next month. I just finish setting up everything they gave me hoping for the best when i wake up tomorrow! Thanks again, but if this doesn't work I'm going to have to do that 90 percent water change tomorrow! Also he was mentioning what food i was feeding my fish....I told him top fin flakes and he told me that I should pick up his store brand Hikari fish food. Is Hikari fish food any better then top fin or does it even really matters to the fish?
here is some pics of the 2 filter in action!

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Hillmar!

This is excellent that you are paying attentions, trying hard and have switched your LFS and set up an additional filter with donated filter pad material! The mature media should help your fishless cycle if the bacteria live through the transfer and "take." The extra media volume of a second filter is indeed a way to make your system more stable in the long run.

The advice you have been given is much better than your previous situation but I would caution you that it is still not as leading edge as you will find among a group of experienced hobbyists such as you can find assembling here pretty often. The advice of 5x dosing of conditioner is correct so far as detoxification of nitrite for 24 hours or so is concerned but is incorrect in terms of an ideal cycling situation. It turns out that one of the few scientists that has done lab work on the nitrogen cycle (Hovanec, et.al.) recommends that conditioner not be dosed higher than 2x overdosing during the period a filter is fishless or fish-in cycling. The problem he found was that it slowed N-Bac (the bacteria that convert nitrite(NO2) to nitrate(NO3)) growth. As I mention above, detox protection from conditioners only helps for about 24 hours anyway, so water changing is still the name of the game in fish-in cycling such as you are doing.

The mental attitude I take with the different LFSs that I visit is that I value them as my source of immediate fish and supplies and I'm always friendly and polite to them but I do not seek out their advice particularly and if offered I always consider it on the same level as a single post here on TFF. Advice from a single post or advice from an LFS deserves some consideration from me but years of posts and searches and knowledge of the overall track record of various posters carries a lot more weight with me. Learning, for me, is a very slow ongoing thing that I always try to stay open to.

That Aquaclear HOB filter I see in your picture is a good filter choice by the way. I've used them in the past and still use one currently on my Quarantine/Hospital tank. The simple rectangular media box allows lots of flexibility of media choice - a prime considerations for hobbyists!

I also disagree with the advice to you that 50% is somehow a correct percentage of water to change at a given moment of your fish-in cycle. This is someone giving general advice when it really would be better for you to understand the principles and apply them. The correct percentage at any given moment is the percentage, which combined with the frequency at which you are doing water changes results in the fish not having to be exposed to ammonia or nitrite(NO2) higher than 0.25 or 0.30ppm (based on which test kit you are using) before you can be home again to change more water. The end result is that your water change often takes the tests results down to what looks like zero ppm but then the values grow slowly back up to 0.25ppm by which time you've detected it and changed water again.

The fallacy is giving a fixed percentage is that fish are much, much more stressed by ammonia or nitrite as compared to the so-called shock (perceived by fish lore) of a water change. Yes, water changes do carry the concern of mineral content and temperature shock and we all pay attention to them, but all of that assumes the fish are living with a beautifully working biofilter. When the fish don't have a biofilter it is an emergency situation for them (kind of like if we were locked in the garage with a running car exhaust) and its our top priority to keep hand-delivering fresh oxygen to them for their gills, if that thought makes sense.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

OK, so they sold you a new filter that has not been cycled at all, some new fish food that you do not need and gave you some kind of gravel.
A 50% water change in your situation is way too little and an uncycled filter is doing nobody any good except the store that sold it. Trying to use Prime in place of a proper sized water change is a very bad idea. Prime is designed to give you a bit of breathing room on trace amounts of ammonia and nitrites, it is never a substitute for a water change. In an emergency it can be used as they suggested when you find traces of nitrites in a tank and you can't be home to do a water change for a few hours. At least the filter media donation is worthwhile. I would put that directly into one of the filters to get one of them a decent start. Do not start removing and tossing filter media every month, that is a recipe for disaster, it will enrich the fish shop though. At least if you run 2 filters side by side you will only be destroying half of the cycled biological filter at any one time by doing that media change.

 

[hillmar77]

Now I'm starting to feel I had been misinformed by that person at the shop!
I know business are there to make money but he did seem pretty genuine when I spoke to him!
I guess I'll return the food if it doesn't do anything different from my top fin flakes and get that 90 percent
Water change done! I going away on a important business trip this week but instructed my wife to keep
The 90 percent water changes daily!
Thanks again for all the help.
I'll keep you guys updated on the situation when I get back!

 

[waterdrop]

OK, hope you have a safe trip and your family is able to keep the water changes going ok. My own approach is never to feel misinformed or vexed by any of the shop people, I just sigh to myself and accept that I must resist letting them be a trusted source that is somehow better than the typical post here on the forum. They are in fact a more complicated source in that they have a business to run and unfortunately it makes a significant part of its money on mistakes that beginners make, mostly just from lack of reliable information sources. I wouldn't alienate them as they sound better than the average and most people don't have so many LFS sources near to them that they don't need their fish and supplies at times.

The important thing is that you are getting up to speed now with the info we can provide on TFF.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

Shops are shops. they are in the business of selling things and if they can make you feel better about buying those things they have done their job well. The shop is giving you just enough information and pointing you just close enough to the right answer to help you have some of your fish survive. In many cases it will result in a return customer so they win again. You only need to do a large enough water change to compensate for the poisons building up in your tank. The last set of readings we saw suggested a 90% plus water change but the next test may well indicate a smaller water change. Please use the advice of keeping readings below 0.25 ppm of the poisons as your guide, not a specific water change amount. If you must leave simple instructions, a daily change of 30% is often enough after you first get your chemistry under control. That is a simple number tat will often be enough with any reasonable fish stock although your own may be outside the range where it would be enough. Unless you are gone a long time, daily 30% changes should be close enough to the right amount after that first big water change.

 

[hillmar77]

Thanks again for the advice guys.....I just arrived at the hotel , and just called my wife to do a 30 percent daily water change instead of the 90 percent (with prime of coarse). She told me all the zebra daino's are swimming and chasing each other..... also eating up all the food real quick
I told her to stay with the 1 feeding once every other day too. I was told the temperature of the tank is spiking to 90 today from the heat wave..... should i be worried?

 

[Katty]

With the heat wave they should be fine for a few days but you/your wife will have to keep an eye on them. If they start showing stress you/she can fill 2 liter soda bottles with water and freeze them, then float them in the tank to cool the water down a little bit. Hot weather also decreases oxygen in the water so you need to make sure there is a good current going in the tank.