Blue Rams Breeding

[Aquamatt]

Hello there all.
My Blue Rams had their first spawning.
It wasn't a roaring success. I woke up one morning 3 days after the eggs were laid, and they were gone. (most were unfertilised). Cleaning the tank 2 days later I found a baby stuck to the side of the tank. Its been rescued and is doing fine. I assume the eggs disappearing had in fact hatched. I thought the parents were supposed to protect the young like they do the eggs.
So
1. Will the pair of rams stay a pair, or will the male migrate to other females that are spawning?
2. Will they settle down and do their thing properly?
3. Would I have them less stressed, and therefore, better able to do their parenting, if I gave them their own tank?
Any suggestions?
 
At the moment they are in a 110L community tank.

 

[r.w.girard]

It isn't uncommon for new parents to eat their young. They may also have been eaten by other fish.  Or even the filter.  What else is in the tank?

 

[Aquamatt]

There Rams are in a community tank with tetra's gourami's and otto's. There is also another female Ram. They did a great job protecting the eggs, but when they have hatched, they must have eaten them or let the get eaten. I was of the understanding that they should also protect the fry. Hopefully they will get it right next time. I have a new tank especially for them being set up atm.

 

[r.w.girard]

So one of the main problems with rams is that, once their fry become free-swimming, which is a couple of days after hatching, they can have a hard time keeping track of them, especially if there is a shoal of fish trying to get at them.  They can only chase one fish at a time, so that can cause problems.  Also, even dwarf gouramis can intimidate bolivian rams.  I used to have one and it would systematically eat all of the fry as soon as they hatched, not even once free swimming.  Germans might do better, but not necessarily.  That and the filter, as I said.  If you want to have fry, try to only keep fish that will ignore them: otocinclus, pencilfish should be fine.  Other than that: everything eats fry whenever possible. And cover the filter intake with a stocking so that babies don't get sucked up.
 
But, with experience, new parents should do better.
 
Or else, remove the the majority of the eggs after a spawn to a new tank by themselves so that there is no predation.  Leaving some with the parents is thought to encourage good parenting and help with pair stability.

 

[Joeman2000]

Once any pair of rams breed they will stay a pair for most likely as long as theyre together. Blue rams are also not good parents. Especially the Asian bred ones. They will pretty much always eat their first spawn and most likely their second also. If you would like to successfully raise a batch of them you will either need to purchase a seperate breeding tank or seperate the eggs from the parents and put them in a small hatching tank/container with a good flow of water being aimed towards them. You could also just grab the eggs out of the community tank and do this as long as you seperate the eggs before anything can eat them. Most likely they will just eventually get the hang of it after a few more spawns.

 

[Aquamatt]

In relation to moving eggs. How is it best to do it? Also, how fragile are they. Will they tolerate changes in ph/gh?
What temperature would the ram's be happier with. They are currently at 25 C. Will higher temp's lead to more successful breeding?
 

 

[r.w.girard]

If you are nervous about changing parameters you could either: fill a tank from a water change, making it identical, or else you could use a fry net or whatever they are called - a little floating net box that you put in an area with high flow.  The eggs would hatch then hatch there.  The flow is critical to prevent fungus (as they need high oxygen).  As for temperature, you could raise it to 28º if none of your other fish would object.  Even 30º, but 25º is pretty low, I would say.  And just to quote from seriouslyfish.com, about M. ramirezi:
 

Inexperienced pairs may eat their brood but often get things right after a few attempts whereas the commercially-produced fish (see ‘Notes’) tend to be of relatively poor quality and may fail to fertilise many of their eggs or simply consume them repeatedly.

 

[Aquamatt]

Ok. Good news. The same pair of rams have laid another clutch of eggs. I have raised the temperature a few degrees over the last few days gradually. The temp is now 26 C (+/- 0.5 C as the heater cycles). I also did a water change yesterday.
 
I am thinking of moving the eggs to a breeding cage as suggested above. What is the best way to move them? I was thinking of gently sucking them up with piece of siphon tube, using my mouth to provide the suction. Is there a better way or will this suffice?
 
Also when should I move them? Immediately or give them a day or two?
 
Finally, will moving their eggs affect their behaviour? I don't want to mess with their natural instincts, as I do have a tank ready for them (nearly - its cycling). Hopefully their I can let them bread naturally, on their own, and not in the community tank their currently in.
 
Note: The Rams seem to be doing everything their supposed to atm. They fan water over the eggs and take turns to guard them. This time round my mean Bristle nose cat  that was giving them so much grief, is in another tank. They have also changed their laying location. First clutch was on an Anubis leaf, but the second is on the bottom of the tank in a shallow depression they have carved out.
 
When I work out how to post some pics, I will rip them off my phone and put them up.

One last question. The eggs that are fertilized do go white? I know that I read the answer to this somewhere here, but I cant find the thread.

 

[Aquamatt]

Here are some photo's of the eggs.
First batch on the Anubis leaf

 
The new batch laid last night (sorry its a bit grainy, I didn't want to turn it into a photo shoot. Worried I'd spook them)

 
 
Thank you very much to the author of the "how to post pictures using photobucket" thread.

 

[fluttermoth]

I would leave the eggs with the parents, if at all possible.
 
There's some evidence (that I can't find right now, d'oh!) that fish need to be parented to know how to be parents themselves. If you take this batch of eggs away and rear them artificially, you'll end up with fish that are even worse parents.
 
It would be lovely if your pair could learn to be proper cichlid parents, but they can't learn with no spawn
 
I know that seems harsh but, honestly, the sight of a cichlid with their brood is one of the most delightful things in fishkeeping, and it's worth persevering over, IMO.
 
Obviously things would be different if we were talking about a vulnerable or threatened species, but we have no lack of rams; what we have a lack of is good rams, and part of that is being able to rear their own spawns (again, IMO).
 
It's unfertilized eggs that go white, btw; fertilized ones tend to be a pinky/orange colour

 

[r.w.girard]

I would agree with Fluttermoth that you should probably not remove all of the eggs, as it is worth allowing the parents to learn to manage their brood.  That said, if you did want to remove some of the eggs there is a number of ways to do it: remove part of the leaf, syphon some off with a hose, move them (very gently!) with tweezers, etc&.
 
And yes, again: white eggs need to be removed, they are un fertilized and will grow fungus that can kill the fertilized eggs as well.  Pinkish ones should be kept as those are little baby fishlets, i.e. fry.  Also, make sure that they get enough water circulation as that will help reduce fungus growth (high oxygen content in the wasser).

 

[Aquamatt]

All right. Thanks for the feedback. I wont move them and see how they go. I snuck into the tank and slid an otto foam filter insert over my ehiem intake today to stop it sucking up any potential babies. There are a lot more fertilized eggs than unfertilised, the distinction is much more visible. I thought I saw the rams eating the eggs, but they seem to pick them up and spit them back out back into the pile. They also seem to be cleaning the surface of the eggs. I missed any opportunity to get a photo of the eggs at day 2 before the lights turned off. I will post one of morning day 3.
Does anyone know of any "Blue Ram" specific reference material? Books, journals or published papers etc. ?

BTW, what time zone is the forum run off? Anyone know?
DW just found it!

 

[Aquamatt]

ARRRRRG!
No photo's today.
Just like before, start of day 3 and the eggs hatched. This process was happening as I woke up.
Sadly Mum and Dad could not resist the wrigglers.
I watched as they were munching on any of the wrigglers that wriggled.
I rescued a few of the eggs and wrigglers by doing a siphon over the area. I now have 2 wrigglers and few unhatched (but fertilized) eggs in a breed box. How long till they will need to be fed, and when they do, what should I feed them? (if they survive)
 
If these guys lay again, I think I will try to approach it on both fronts. I will steal some of the eggs next time and put them in a breed box, and leave them some to see if they can learn how to do it properly. Their private tank is still cycling, and is a week or more away from me being happy to put them in there. Even then I may have to isolate some eggs from the parents.
 
I do agree with fluttermoth, that a cichlid doing its thing naturally and looking after their young is an amazing thing. Its what drew me to them in the first place.