Bacterial growth on fish eyes HELP DIAGNOSE!!!

[TheRisingPhoenix]

Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum but not at all new to fish forums in general. I am an experienced freshwater tropical (mostly SA Cichlids) fish and reptile enthusiast. I am having issues in my 72 bowfront planted South American Cichlid community. I dose DIY Co2 (Citric acid/Baking soda) and I'm currently running a Sunsun 304b with UV sterilizer built in addition to a powerful air machine and wave maker(powerhead essentially). I thought I had enough oxygen in the water column to help combat the amounts of Co2 being injected into the tank. So I noticed my Turquoise Severum had a white cloudy growth on his right eye. I thought initially it was injury but then my Electric Blue Acara had same growth on left eye. I thought both got onto a fight and gave each other an injury until my a Cory catfish started to die. I tested the water parameters and the ph was below 6.0 and the test didn't read of course bc 6.0 is lowest readable. I use liquid api master test kit. My ammonia was ever so slightly spiked at 0.5 to 1.0. My Nitrites are normal and Nitrates are normal around 5/10 ppm. I bought a digital ph water tester and the ph is at 5.2 way too low. My thought is the growth is bacterial due to waste build up bc the beneficial bacteria can't maintain the load bc of the very low ph. So i raised ph with a water change and the baking soda method. After a few days I am at 6.8 ph and all other test results are exactly the same. Even the ammonia. I am also dosing the tank with melafix to help heal the bacterial infected eyes. They seem to be doing a little better but im still worried and wondering if I diagnosed correctly. Im turning to forums for secondary advice. Any advice is welcomed and appreciated. All other fish in my tank are fine. I've since moved the remaining Cory catfish to a Q-tank and dosing melafix in there as well. They seem to be doing better also. Thanks in advance.

 

[FishGuest5123]

Welcome! Definitely not Popeye. Could be an injury. If it becomes necessary to use meds, I would recommend Kanaplex and Furan-2 together or you can purchase Spectogram from American Aquarium Products which already has the 2 mixed together.

 

[TheRisingPhoenix]

Welcome! Definitely not Popeye. Could be an injury. If it becomes necessary to use meds, I would recommend Kanaplex and Furan-2 together or you can purchase Spectogram from American Aquarium Products which already has the 2 mixed together.

Ok thanks for your insight. What are your thoughts on the ph being so low that the beneficial bacteria can no longer process the waste fast enough so bacterial growths start growing in fishes eyes bc of the poor conditions?

 

[seangee]

Why citric acid / baking soda?
Your tank doesn't look like it needs CO2.

I have no experience with cichlids but corys are fine in low pH. Its really better not to mess with pH as most species can tolerate a wide range, but do need it to be stable. I'd do a 75% water change and then do regular weekly changes of 50-75%.

 

[TheRisingPhoenix]

Why citric acid / baking soda?
Your tank doesn't look like it needs CO2.

I have no experience with cichlids but corys are fine in low pH. Its really better not to mess with pH as most species can tolerate a wide range, but do need it to be stable. I'd do a 75% water change and then do regular weekly changes of 50-75%.

My ph is usually stable around 6.0 to 6.5 but when it dropped it dropped to 5.2 which is too low. At that low of a ph the bacterial bacteria that consumes the waste can no longer process it at a steady rate if at all. There are lots of articles online on the topic... I have been dosing diy co2 for at least a year when I had a massive BBA outbreak. I cut light times to 6 to 8 hours a day on my t5ho system and added the diy Co2. Since that last outbreak I haven't had any issues until this week with the ph crash. The Co2 boosts the plants up so they can pull the nutrients from the water column faster than the dreaded algae... hence robbing most algae of nutrients and a chance to grow. Im not sure whether my Co2 is actually even the problem or the cause if this latest issue. Everything has been stable and pristine for a year and 3 days ago boom ph drop and cloudy fish eyes in 2 fish... I lost 2 Cory catfish as well. Im wondering what anyone thinks may be going on If my diagnosis seems plausible or correct or if I'm off base and treating something that doesn't need to be treated.

 

[TheRisingPhoenix]

Why citric acid / baking soda?
Your tank doesn't look like it needs CO2.

I have no experience with cichlids but corys are fine in low pH. Its really better not to mess with pH as most species can tolerate a wide range, but do need it to be stable. I'd do a 75% water change and then do regular weekly changes of 50-75%.

Forgot to add that I do anywhere from a 25% to 50% water chance once a week depending if the tank looks like it needs it or if im dosing fertilizers. If dosing I will do a larger water change.

 

[Byron]

I stay out of "disease" threads as my experience is (fortunately) next to nil, but I will comment when I see issues, and there are a couple here.

First, your water changes should be larger in volume, no less than 50% but given the fish here 70% would be advisable, and these once a week. This and only this will remove more pollutants [I comment further on this in what follows.] The fish will be in better health the more water you change, regardless of any other issues.

Second, the eye issue is not columnaris (I had this once), and not likely bacterial. Only yesterday on CorydorasWorld a member had a bacterial issue and Ian Fuller's advice was to let the pH go below 5 as it will inhibit bacteria. His tanks like mine have zero GH/KH and the pH lowers to wherever it goes and we leave it alone. Most soft water fish are fine with this. Which brings me to the cichlids. The Severum (species Heros efasciatus) occurs in the same sort of water, zero GH, acidic pH, so this should not be an issue; more data here:

Heros efasciatus (Severum) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

The Blue Acara (Andinoacara pulcher) occurs further north in Venezuela, Trinidad, etc, also very soft water though a tad higher pH, but I doubt this is the issue here either.

Andinoacara pulcher – Blue Acara — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

This species is intolerant of water quality issues (as are all cichlids frankly), and would undoubtedly be improved with more substantial water changes.

One of them looks like a cataract and it should be left alone as there is no cure. The fish will go (if not already) blind in that eye, but they can usually continue to feed.

I will stay out of the plant-related aspects, but it is now accepted that diffused CO2 does likely impact fish so this may be another factor. The solitary Bala Shark (Balantiocheilos melanopterus) is a real problem, as this fish needs a group as it "expects" to develop an hierartchy and as this is being denied it, there could be some relationship; aggression is the most common response from fish to such severe stress. Just because we do not see actual physical interaction does not mean "aggression" is not present, either physically when we are not looking or chemically--another reason to increase water change volumes as nothing else removes pheromones and allomones and these build and stress fish.

 

[TheRisingPhoenix]

I stay out of "disease" threads as my experience is (fortunately) next to nil, but I will comment when I see issues, and there are a couple here.

First, your water changes should be larger in volume, no less than 50% but given the fish here 70% would be advisable, and these once a week. This and only this will remove more pollutants [I comment further on this in what follows.] The fish will be in better health the more water you change, regardless of any other issues.

Second, the eye issue is not columnaris (I had this once), and not likely bacterial. Only yesterday on CorydorasWorld a member had a bacterial issue and Ian Fuller's advice was to let the pH go below 5 as it will inhibit bacteria. His tanks like mine have zero GH/KH and the pH lowers to wherever it goes and we leave it alone. Most soft water fish are fine with this. Which brings me to the cichlids. The Severum (species Heros efasciatus) occurs in the same sort of water, zero GH, acidic pH, so this should not be an issue; more data here:

Heros efasciatus (Severum) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

The Blue Acara (Andinoacara pulcher) occurs further north in Venezuela, Trinidad, etc, also very soft water though a tad higher pH, but I doubt this is the issue here either.

Andinoacara pulcher – Blue Acara — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

This species is intolerant of water quality issues (as are all cichlids frankly), and would undoubtedly be improved with more substantial water changes.

One of them looks like a cataract and it should be left alone as there is no cure. The fish will go (if not already) blind in that eye, but they can usually continue to feed.

I will stay out of the plant-related aspects, but it is now accepted that diffused CO2 does likely impact fish so this may be another factor. The solitary Bala Shark (Balantiocheilos melanopterus) is a real problem, as this fish needs a group as it "expects" to develop an hierartchy and as this is being denied it, there could be some relationship; aggression is the most common response from fish to such severe stress. Just because we do not see actual physical interaction does not mean "aggression" is not present, either physically when we are not looking or chemically--another reason to increase water change volumes as nothing else removes pheromones and allomones and these build and stress fish.

Thank you for your response. The bala im full aware of it needing a group. He is a rescue that was kept in a 20 gallon at that size. A friend of mines younger sister didn't realize that was a no no... he's even outgrowing my 72. I just at the time thought he'd be ok in my 72 bc more space would translate to better health temporarily. I in no way could buy 2 more for a 72 obviously. He doesn't fit into my other fishes water needs as he is from Asian waters not South American waters. I will say though he's active, eats like a horse and seems generally happy in my set-up... but let's not argue about its stress over not having a group. He will likely find his way back to a fish store at some point as he will outgrow my tank soon either way. You make a good point about it not being bacterial bc if low ph inhibits the beneficial bacteria from processing waste than bacteria on the eye wouldn't grow essentially. The only thing that makes me call B.s. on cataracts is two fish with the exact same lesions or growth on the eyes at the same exact time??? Not at all likely sir. I lost two Cory's at the same time as well which to me points to something in the water column so yes larger water changes once a week sounds like a good idea with my amount of stock. I just can't believe people actually change 50 to 75% of the water weekly. I've issues with very close (weekly) large water changes throwing me into a mini cycle. My filter media is very well established and the decor and substrate have been in since it's been filled the first time. But even so that much new water every wk never causes you any issues?

 

[TheRisingPhoenix]

I stay out of "disease" threads as my experience is (fortunately) next to nil, but I will comment when I see issues, and there are a couple here.

First, your water changes should be larger in volume, no less than 50% but given the fish here 70% would be advisable, and these once a week. This and only this will remove more pollutants [I comment further on this in what follows.] The fish will be in better health the more water you change, regardless of any other issues.

Second, the eye issue is not columnaris (I had this once), and not likely bacterial. Only yesterday on CorydorasWorld a member had a bacterial issue and Ian Fuller's advice was to let the pH go below 5 as it will inhibit bacteria. His tanks like mine have zero GH/KH and the pH lowers to wherever it goes and we leave it alone. Most soft water fish are fine with this. Which brings me to the cichlids. The Severum (species Heros efasciatus) occurs in the same sort of water, zero GH, acidic pH, so this should not be an issue; more data here:

Heros efasciatus (Severum) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

The Blue Acara (Andinoacara pulcher) occurs further north in Venezuela, Trinidad, etc, also very soft water though a tad higher pH, but I doubt this is the issue here either.

Andinoacara pulcher – Blue Acara — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

This species is intolerant of water quality issues (as are all cichlids frankly), and would undoubtedly be improved with more substantial water changes.

One of them looks like a cataract and it should be left alone as there is no cure. The fish will go (if not already) blind in that eye, but they can usually continue to feed.

I will stay out of the plant-related aspects, but it is now accepted that diffused CO2 does likely impact fish so this may be another factor. The solitary Bala Shark (Balantiocheilos melanopterus) is a real problem, as this fish needs a group as it "expects" to develop an hierartchy and as this is being denied it, there could be some relationship; aggression is the most common response from fish to such severe stress. Just because we do not see actual physical interaction does not mean "aggression" is not present, either physically when we are not looking or chemically--another reason to increase water change volumes as nothing else removes pheromones and allomones and these build and stress fish.

Just to tack onto the bala shark Topic... most sites I have researched say they do fine alone... never to keep only 2 but 3 is optimal for hierarchy. The only issue stated with a lone bala shark is they can be skittish if startled. Either way it doesn't matter bc like I said he needs a 120 or larger and I can't provide it for him... he will need to be adopted out or brought back to a store unfortunately. Everything else I keep fit the bill nicely in my opinion. I'd love to hear your opinion on the rest of my fish if you don't mind giving it. Severum, eb acara, fire mouth, pair of keyhole cichlids, bushy nose pleco, raphael catfish, 3 otto catfish and a snakeskin gourami (I know he's from Asia not SA) the only other non south American I keep. Ty

 

[Byron]

Thank you for your response. The bala im full aware of it needing a group. He is a rescue that was kept in a 20 gallon at that size. A friend of mines younger sister didn't realize that was a no no... he's even outgrowing my 72. I just at the time thought he'd be ok in my 72 bc more space would translate to better health temporarily. I in no way could buy 2 more for a 72 obviously. He doesn't fit into my other fishes water needs as he is from Asian waters not South American waters. I will say though he's active, eats like a horse and seems generally happy in my set-up... but let's not argue about its stress over not having a group. He will likely find his way back to a fish store at some point as he will outgrow my tank soon either way. You make a good point about it not being bacterial bc if low ph inhibits the beneficial bacteria from processing waste than bacteria on the eye wouldn't grow essentially. The only thing that makes me call B.s. on cataracts is two fish with the exact same lesions or growth on the eyes at the same exact time??? Not at all likely sir. I lost two Cory's at the same time as well which to me points to something in the water column so yes larger water changes once a week sounds like a good idea with my amount of stock. I just can't believe people actually change 50 to 75% of the water weekly. I've issues with very close (weekly) large water changes throwing me into a mini cycle. My filter media is very well established and the decor and substrate have been in since it's been filled the first time. But even so that much new water every wk never causes you any issues?

I understand and basically agree on the Bala. Poor fish, but under the circumstances I agree. It could still be the cause behind the injuries. I can only offer suggestions as to possible things resulting from the circumstances detailed. And I didn't mean to suggest all the fish have cataracts, only than one of them looked like a cataract (may or may not be).

Re the water changes, there is no way doing large regular water changes could cause any cycling issues; quite the reverse actually. If we could change 100% of the tank water every day the fish would benefit; or a flow-through system where fresh water was entering the tank continually as in nature. But both of these are not very practical. It is the increasing pollution in the water in which fish swim that harms them, so the more of these we remove regularly the healthier the fish. These cause stress which weakens the immune system at the very least. I have been doing 60-70% water changes once a week for over 20 years now. The tap water parameters are much the same as the tank water, this is important, but I select fish suited to my source water so I can achieve this benefit. I also have live plants which include floating in every tank. My very limited experience of disease is no doubt largely due to my maintenance schedule.

Looking at it mathematically, changing 70% once a week is more effective than changing 10% daily, because the larger change removes 70% of the pollution whereas the smaller changes only remove 10% of the existing pollution so 90% remains and the next day there is more again. And the stuff we remove via water changes is the stuff that can only be removed by water changes. Fish process a lot of water every day, taking it in via osmosis through every cell, dealing with it in some manner depending upon thee species and the water, then releasing this now "dead" water. Then there is the solid waste trapped in the filter, but left there polluting the water more and more until it is removed. Then there are the pheromones and allomones which are very significant to the fish.

 

[Byron]

Just to tack onto the bala shark Topic... most sites I have researched say they do fine alone... never to keep only 2 but 3 is optimal for hierarchy. The only issue stated with a lone bala shark is they can be skittish if startled.

I'd be interested in the names of these sites. Unfortunately, anyone can set up a site and promote themselves as expert. Reliable sites are those owned by trained biologists/ichthyologists and used by the same. Seriously Fish has this on the species:

Although it is gregarious by nature this is a shoaling rather than schooling species which develops a distinct pecking order and therefore should always be maintained in a group of five or more. If only two or three are purchased the subdominant fish may be bullied incessantly whereas solitary specimens can become aggressive towards similar-looking species.​

Sometimes it is the implication as much as the words themselves that are significant. The normal behaviour of this fish clearly suggests it needs a group of five or more if we want it to be healthy. Having said that, as I said in my previous post, I understand the circumstances here and I would have to agree. Even if you did acquire an 8-foot tank (which is minimum for this species in the appropriate numbers and environment) it might be more cruel than leaving it alone. Fish denied what they "expect" for a period of timme do not react normally, and this decline is not reversible once it has occurred. Placed in with a group now this fish might become a real terror, or withdraw and die. BTW, more substantial water changes would help this fish, given their habitat data as they are intolerant of poor water conditions.

 

[seangee]

I just can't believe people actually change 50 to 75% of the water weekly. I've issues with very close (weekly) large water changes throwing me into a mini cycle.

Just FWIW I change 75-80% of my water every week in my 3 tanks. I've just finished the first one for this weekend and starting on the second. I have never had a cycle issue. The tank in my sig has a pH below 6 (I can't reliably measure it either). It has no CO2 and is under filtered and over stocked. There is so little algae I hardly ever clean the glass. Those floating plants really do suck all the ammonia out of the water and are highly recommended.

 

[FishGuest5123]

Ok thanks for your insight. What are your thoughts on the ph being so low that the beneficial bacteria can no longer process the waste fast enough so bacterial growths start growing in fishes eyes bc of the poor conditions?

Identifying diseases and injuries and meds is where I can help. I’m afraid I’m going to have to leave the chemistry questions to some of our other members. @Byron or @essjay can you help?

 

[TheRisingPhoenix]

I'd be interested in the names of these sites. Unfortunately, anyone can set up a site and promote themselves as expert. Reliable sites are those owned by trained biologists/ichthyologists and used by the same. Seriously Fish has this on the species:

Although it is gregarious by nature this is a shoaling rather than schooling species which develops a distinct pecking order and therefore should always be maintained in a group of five or more. If only two or three are purchased the subdominant fish may be bullied incessantly whereas solitary specimens can become aggressive towards similar-looking species.​

Sometimes it is the implication as much as the words themselves that are significant. The normal behaviour of this fish clearly suggests it needs a group of five or more if we want it to be healthy. Having said that, as I said in my previous post, I understand the circumstances here and I would have to agree. Even if you did acquire an 8-foot tank (which is minimum for this species in the appropriate numbers and environment) it might be more cruel than leaving it alone. Fish denied what they "expect" for a period of timme do not react normally, and this decline is not reversible once it has occurred. Placed in with a group now this fish might become a real terror, or withdraw and die. BTW, more substantial water changes would help this fish, given their habitat data as they are intolerant of poor water conditions.

Ok you made a believer out of me. Wow I've been in the hobby for over 20 years myself and always thought anything over 50% water change was for major emergencies only. I had a 65g with a flowerhorn and I was doing 2- 50% water changes twice a week bc of very high ammonia. He ate like a pig. I had two canister filters on there rated for 120g each and still I had issues. Long story short my tank kept recycling over and over and over I could never get normal parameters. That's just one personal experience I had that reinforced that way of thinking. So do you think I should wait until im done dosing melafix to do the large water change or do it asap?

 

[TheRisingPhoenix]

Just FWIW I change 75-80% of my water every week in my 3 tanks. I've just finished the first one for this weekend and starting on the second. I have never had a cycle issue. The tank in my sig has a pH below 6 (I can't reliably measure it either). It has no CO2 and is under filtered and over stocked. There is so little algae I hardly ever clean the glass. Those floating plants really do suck all the ammonia out of the water and are highly recommended.

I had a bunch of frog bit and dwarf water lettuce at one point that really helped out however they began to grow so crazy that they shadowed the light for the plants on the substrate and some of my swords started to die. I eventually scooped them all out and gave to a friend with an indoor pond. I miss them bc you are right about them sucking nutrients from the column.