It never ceases to amaze me how little of the science most fish keeper know about.
Do folks reading this thread not know that CO2 cause pH to drop? Look it up. You will read something like this
How Does CO2 Affct pH In Water
Carbon dioxide is influential in regulating pH in water. Measuring the amount of CO2 in a solution is one way to determine the pH. For example, the more CO2 in water (H2O), the lower the pH will be. When CO2 is dissolved in water, a part of it reacts with water to become carbonic acid (H2CO3). It is the hydrogen ions present in carbonic acid that make water acidic, lowering the pH.
We can look at how carbonic acid is formed by the following equation:
CO2 (aq) + H2O → H2CO3 (aq)
Carbonic acid can also break up or “dissociate” into hydrogen ions (H+) and carbonate ions (CO3–2) which can be seen in the following equation:
H2CO3 → 2H+ + CO3–2
When this happens, two hydrogen ions are formed for every single carbonate ion.
In water, it is the relationship between carbon dioxide and pH that influences pH levels. As mentioned, when carbon dioxide is dissolved in water, the release of hydrogen ions in carbonic acid is what lowers the pH.
https://atlas-scientific.com/blog/how-does-co2-affect-ph-in-water/
A
nd yes fish exhale ammonia
Fish primarily excrete ammonia as a byproduct of protein metabolism, eliminating the vast majority of it (roughly 80-90%) by
passive diffusion across their gills directly into the water. The remainder is continuously expelled in smaller amounts through their urine and feces via the
kidneys and vent.
https://ask.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/FA031
So what do all the folks reading here think happens to the CO2 and ammonia which the fish pass out of their body via their gills into the bag water? Do you think it magically disappears? Do you think the science above stops working because you did not know how this all works?
I was curious about acclimation and started to hunt for research papers on the subject. Unfortunately, what I could find dealt with temperature. Most of it dealt with determining the terminal endpoint, both high and low, which would kill the fish. The science showed that the behavior of fish at either end point changed. The research was intended to identify at what temps the behavior changed and then how long it took for the fish to die. A lot of fish died to get the answers.
And then I came across one study (which I failed to bookmark) where the scientists took things beyond just discovering the death point. What they wondered was when they saw the behavior at the end point signalling the fish would be dying fairly soon, could they do something to save the fish, The answer was yes and the solution was as fast as possible to transfer the fish into water within their safe temperature range. Low and behold they prevented the fish from dying when they did this.
A number of years ago when I was selling in the vendor room at an NEC weekend event there was a vendor who specialized in discus. While I always arrived Thursday evening and had my booth set up before I went to bed, the discus folks came on Saturday morning. They had a specially equipped van they used for transporting the discus. It was basically a big holding container. They had a electricity which powered heaters and air in the container.
The NEC held its events the last weekend in March or the first one in April. That year there was a freak snow storm on Saturday morning. The temperatures were in the freezing range
Unfortunately, the electricity in the van broke and the water in the container got progressively colder and the van did as well., When the two gents with the discus arrived they were in a panic and explained why. What they did was to set up one of their tanks using the water from the van and then they began trying to acclimate the fish by gradually raising the temp. slowly. I knew the outcome from doing this would not be good, So tried to explain to them why they should not be acclimating but should be getting the fish into discus temps ASAP. I explained about the paper that had shown this,
They were pretty rude, told me to mind my own business as they were experts and knew what they were doing. I backed off and then watched 3/4 of their fish die. Had they listened, they would have saved most if not all of them.
The reason I was going to the Transshipper on Sundays was because I am a friend of Rachel O'Leary. She was the one who caused me to stop wasting time and fish doing any acclimation and to plop and drop them instead. She was acclimating them and losing about 1/3 of the fish on average. And then somebody taught her to stop doing that and start the plop and drop. Her loses dropped to under 10% as a result.
Here trip was an 8 hour affair and she had two young daughters at home ans often her husband was not available to be there with them. So I helped out by driving the 45 minutes to the the Transshipper, paying for he order in cash and then I drove to meet her in N. Philly. This saved her 4 hours. One nice thing I could do was to order fish at import prices. She sent me the weekly lists and pries and I would either buy stuff on my own or we might split a species or two. This worked well for both of us.
So now lets revisit the bag of fish sealed shut for the trip. The ammonia is being increased as the fish breath. But, the CO2 was also increasing as the fish "exhaled." But proper bagging involved as much air or even oxygen as possible, witin reason. So along the way the pH is being dropped even as the ammonia (NH3) is being created. And this works to keep the fish safe from the ammonia as it is mostly or even all in the form of ammonium (NH4).
In our tanks gas exchange happens at the surface where gasses from the air or in the water can enter or leave. All that has to happen is that the surface is agitated to break the surface tension which would other wise impede gas exchange between water and air. In a bag nothing goes out or in. (The exception is when one is able to use breather bags.) But as soon as we open the bag, gas exchange can happen, and this means the CO2 levels will drop. And when that happens the pH will rise.
Now lets talk about how fish are packed in terms of temperature. When it is cold, heat packs will be used to help keep temp. in a safe range for the fish. There are two consideration here. The first is one wants to keep the water temps. within the range the fish needs. But the second is to have the temp. in the box and thus the bags fairly constant. The best way to do this is to use two different duration heat packs.
The heat packs which have a 20 -30 hour duration tend to heat up pretty fast to their max output and then they begin to cool. On the other hand, heat packs of longer duration such as 50, 60 or 72 hours tend to warm up to their max output more slowly. But one they hit it they tend to hold it until they stop. So, for most instances the solution for keeping the box temp pretty steady for the duration of the trip I was taught to use both a shorter and a longer duration heat pack.
I sent box of 20 zebra plecos from here in NY to Texas. I used the USPO for this and at that time FedEx used to carry the Express mail boxes for the USPS. That box went out to the FedEx Chicago distribution center where it was supposed to be put onto a plane to Texas. But they had an accident involving a barrel of a toxic liquid falling off of a fork lift and spilling the contents onto to floor. They locked won the place.
It was on day 3 in transit when the box finally arrived at the the buyers home. We had advance warning it would arrive around or 5 in the afternoon. I had packed the fish to arrive in 24-30 hours and it was cold outside. So, I instructed my buyer that when the box arrived it was essential that he do no acclimation for anything but got the fish in to the proper temp. water ASAP. I explained why this was essential.
He took the water temp in the 3 bags into which I had divided the fish. The temp. was 60F in 2 bags and 59 in the third. Two of the fish were DOAs. But he did what I told him with the rest. Of course I offered him the choice of a refund or replacements and he oped for the refund which I sent right away. Two days later he called me to say two more fish had died. I said I would refund him for one as I could not be sure they had died as result of the temps. as opposed to something else in this tank. I refunded his money for one more fish, but he refused to accept it, We had used Zelle for it all and he declined it when it came into his bank.
As for the Transshipper and acclimating for anything, they do not do it, They had 1,00o of fish arriving and people showing up to pay and take them away. T\they handled them all by plopping and dropping them into good water of the right temp. and immediately rebagging them to go into boxes for their customers. Some of these fish were going to me. When I would meet Rachel on M. Philly she would open the bags and take out my fish and put them into new bags for me to take home with me. She also paid me back for the money I laid out for her order.
Neither of us lost man fish from this process. I averaged about 3-4 trips every 2 months to the transshipper and then to meet Rachel.
When ever I ship fish I have bred I always tell the buyer to plop and drop them and hot to bother trying to acclimate them. Considering I sold fish anywhere from $150 to several $100 per fish, I would have to be crazy to tell buyers to do things that would kill them.
I have actually killed fish in my early years trying to acclimate them before I finally learned why I needed to plop and drop them.
When I get new fish I set up a net on a bucket, I open he bag and poured the fish into the net. Then I put them into a tank. This is usually a Q tank but not always. Sometimes they will go directly into their permanent home which has been set up specifically for them.
(edited for a ton of typos and few incorrect words)
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