Any body up for a challenge??

[mbsqw1d]

The 5th question is about dechlorinator. But no where does she say not to use it.

Indeed. More to do with 75% water changes for which there is another thread on here to be fair

 

[kwi]

This quote in the other thread abouit 75% changes makes a good point.

@Airwreck - The Walstad method only works with a heavily planted (e.g. jungle) tank and an extremely light bio-load. Conditions that just don't exist in the average hobbyist aquarium. Fast growing (especially floating) plants will consume ammonia as their nitrogen source which keeps nitrates low. But then many of the popular plants are slow growing and not much help in this regard.
Goliad Farms in South Texas uses plants only for filtration and top offs only (NO WATER CHANGES) - but check out the plants in his greenhouses!

 

[itiwhetu]

I want to tell you a story. I used buy and sell fish. I had a customer who used to come and see me all the time. One day I asked her more about her tank, she used to loose fish and replace them. I set her up with my system. She stopped using any additives, meds, etc. In her cupboard she had around $300 worth. I stopped seeing her, about 18 months later I bumped into her in the super market asked how was her fish, hadn't seen her for a while, she said I haven't lost any but need to come around and pick up a couple cos I'm getting bored with my tank.

 

[mbsqw1d]

@itiwhetu sorry for you to repeat yourself, but with regards to detoxifying chloramine without chemicals, is your reasoning that this can be done with activated carbon (and possibly UV), plus a heavily planted tank? Whilst that is very possible it certainly doesn't sound like it's for everyone, even the vast majority of fish keepers.

 

[mbsqw1d]

I want to tell you a story. I used buy and sell fish. I had a customer who used to come and see me all the time. One day I asked her more about her tank, she used to loose fish and replace them. I set her up with my system. She stopped using any additives, meds, etc. In her cupboard she had around $300 worth. I stopped seeing her, about 18 months later I bumped into her in the super market asked how was her fish, hadn't seen her for a while, she said I haven't lost any but need to come around and pick up a couple cos I'm getting bored with my tank.

We can certainly over do it with the use of chemicals. We see it in here all the time, people desperate for help with their sick fish (which incidentally may be due to buying an already sick fish), and they post a message stating they've already thrown every aquatic medication known to man in the tank when all they had to do was use salt, or perhaps raise the temperature. The lady in question, her water source may have contained chlorine which is a different story than chloramine?

 

[itiwhetu]

@itiwhetu sorry for you to repeat yourself, but with regards to detoxifying chloramine without chemicals, is your reasoning that this can be done with activated carbon (and possibly UV), plus a heavily planted tank? Whilst that is very possible it certainly doesn't sound like it's for everyone, even the vast majority of fish keepers.

@itiwhetu sorry for you to repeat yourself, but with regards to detoxifying chloramine without chemicals, is your reasoning that this can be done with activated carbon (and possibly UV), plus a heavily planted tank? Whilst that is very possible it certainly doesn't sound like it's for everyone, even the vast majority of fish keepers.

Yes and the acid water

 

[itiwhetu]

We can certainly over do it with the use of chemicals. We see it in here all the time, people desperate for help with their sick fish (which incidentally may be due to buying an already sick fish), and they post a message stating they've already thrown every aquatic medication known to man in the tank when all they had to do was use salt, or perhaps raise the temperature. The lady in question, her water source may have contained chlorine which is a different story than chloramine?

Yep chlorine town supply

 

[WhistlingBadger]

There is usually more than one right way to do any given task.

I've read Walstad's book several times and refer back to it frequently. I really find her work fascinating. I strongly recommend her book for anyone interested in what is happening, biologically, inside their tanks, particularly in the substrate. I call my tanks semi-Walstad, because I do use filtration so I can stock a bit more heavily than her method recommends. Her stocking densities are very low, similar to what one might see in a natural body of water, while her plants are much more dense and varied than one would find in most natural waters. That is why so much of her advice goes against fish-keeping orthodoxy. For example, her fish do very well without filtration. It works!

I agree with the general point about the over-use of aquarium chemicals, and I'm all for reducing their use, but to me "natural dechlorination" is a moot point. The presence of chlorine and (especially) chloramine in our water is a profoundly unnatural condition. Dealing with it "naturally" is a bit like "naturally" digesting plastic. Ain't gonna happen; doesn't need to happen. The goal of dechlorinator, and perhaps of most aquarium chemicals if they are used correctly, is to return the water to its natural condition by eliminating or neutralizing the unnatural components. Then the plants, fish, and microbes can take over and do their thing.

If someone has figured out a way to truly get rid of the bad chemicals without chemical additives, I'm all for it. But I'll keep using Prime in my own tanks, thanks.

 

[seangee]

Have you ever tried a peat base with a large quantity of plant, the system will go soft and the organic material will drive the ph down

Right I'm out of here - this thread is boring me. For anyone struggling with hard water this is not a miracle cure. In fact its not even correct. Peat will reduce alkalinity and therfore pH over time. It will not and cannot reduce hardness to make the water go soft. It achieves this reduction of alkalinity by the chemical reaction of decomposing organic matter. Just because its a natural phenomonon does not mean its not chemical. By products of this process include ammonia, CO2 and nitrates. You would achieve exactly the same result by never cleaning your tank or doing water changes.

So before you rush out and order truck loads of peat please consider the ecological impact of harvesting it and the negative impact on the environment and biodiversity. No idea about other countires but this is already a serious ecological issue in the UK - so lets not add to it.

 

[mbsqw1d]

The presence of chlorine and (especially) chloramine in our water is a profoundly unnatural condition. Dealing with it "naturally" is a bit like "naturally" digesting trans-fats. Ain't gonna happen; doesn't need to happen. The goal of dechlorinator, and perhaps of most aquarium chemicals if they are used correctly, is to return the water to its natural condition by eliminating or neutralizing the unnatural components. Then the plants, fish, and microbes can take over and do their thing.

If someone has figured out a way to truly get rid of the bad chemicals without chemical additives, I'm all for it. But I'll keep using Prime in my own tanks, thanks.

Agree theres nothing natural known to us that would naturally deal with the unnatural addition to our water when it comes to chloramine. Perhaps one day there'll be a discovery, like how they have discovered fungi that will consume plastics. With regards to Prime, I've recently learned that it is more a 'water conditioner' rather than just a dechlorinater as it uses EDTA to chelate metals, however DOCs within a planted tank do this job in order to feed plants the minerals which they require. Using EDTA (Prime) would remove iron for example, and you would then need to add this iron back if you kept plants.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Agree theres nothing natural known to us that would naturally deal with the unnatural addition to our water when it comes to chloramine. Perhaps one day there'll be a discovery, like how they have discovered fungi that will consume plastics. With regards to Prime, I've recently learned that it is more a 'water conditioner' rather than just a dechlorinater as it uses EDTA to chelate metals, however DOCs within a planted tank do this job in order to feed plants the minerals which they require. Using EDTA (Prime) would remove iron for example, and you would then need to add this iron back if you kept plants.

DOCs?

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Right I'm out of here - this thread is boring me. For anyone struggling with hard water this is not a miracle cure. In fact its not even correct. Peat will reduce alkalinity and therfore pH over time. It will not and cannot reduce hardness to make the water go soft. It achieves this reduction of alkalinity by the chemical reaction of decomposing organic matter. Just because its a natural phenomonon does not mean its not chemical. By products of this process include ammonia, CO2 and nitrates. You would achieve exactly the same result by never cleaning your tank or doing water changes.

So before you rush out and order truck loads of peat please consider the ecological impact of harvesting it and the negative impact on the environment and biodiversity. No idea about other countires but this is already a serious ecological issue in the UK - so lets not add to it.

Forgive me, because I'm a chemistry dunce - but even if we left the environmental impact aside (which we shouldn't) it wouldn't even work for hard water in the long term, would it? Only from my little research and discussion with you and @essjay about my hard source water (253ppm) with a KH of 10, and wanting a softer water tank for my otocinclus, even if I used organics like peat, driftwood, almond leaves etc, while they would help, my KH would buffer this and bring the water back to a harder GH, causing fluctuations each time I did a water change.

I don't think it's as easy as making any water soft, unless the KH is low enough for the organics to actually reduce the GH ? Or maybe I'm just confusing myself even more here

 

[seangee]

I don't think it's as easy as making any water soft, unless the KH is low enough for the organics to actually reduce the GH ? Or maybe I'm just confusing myself even more here

Possibly . Decomposing organics produces acid. The carbonates (KH) will counteract this to stop the water going acidic. At some point the KH drops to 0 as the carbonates are used up and then the water does go acidic. GH never changes. You can actually get rid of KH by boiling water. Still won't touch the GH.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Possibly . Decomposing organics produces acid. The carbonates (KH) will counteract this to stop the water going acidic. At some point the KH drops to 0 as the carbonates are used up and then the water does go acidic. GH never changes. You can actually get rid of KH by boiling water. Still won't touch the GH.

Thank you I think that helps me understand it a bit better. Maybe.
I wish I'd worked harder to grasp chemistry when I was in school!

 

[mbsqw1d]

DOCs?

Dissolved Organic Carbons