Angelfish pairs / territorial / aggression

[Zoeeannee]

I have 6 angels in a 400L / 100 US gallon tank. 3 of them are about 7 inches tall and the other 3 are about 5 inches tall. Naturally, the smaller 3 are at the bottom of the pecking order but don’t seem to get bullied much as they know their place and are fairly submissive and surprisingly well behaved and non-territorial (for now!).

2 of my larger 3 have paired off leaving one larger fish without a pair for now given the smaller ones are not fully matured and the smaller 3 have not yet paired.

My paired 2 are very territorial towards all other angels and even some of my other fish - peaceful fish like diamond tetras and platties, they’ve even chased after my corydoras!

1. My first question is; I know angels can be particularly territorial and aggressive if they’re looking to spawn; could this be the case or is this just what their behaviour might be?
2. My second question is; if and when the other 4 angels pair off, could this aggressive and territorial behaviour lessen?
3. And my third and final question; I have put a grid type divider in my tank keeping the 2 paired fish away from the other 4 and things between the angels seem to have calmed down. There is a gap at the top and bottom where the fish can go and after the 4 angels being chased away everyone seems to know their place so I have basically created a much clearer territory divider. Could this help them to calm down a bit and then remove the divider?

 

[Byron]

My first question is; I know angels can be particularly territorial and aggressive if they’re looking to spawn; could this be the case or is this just what their behaviour might be?

Both. All angelfish males are territorial. The extent this plays out can depend upon factors like the individual fish, tank size, and other angelfish (the more there are, usually but not always the more they may get along--but never a guarantee. The dominant male here might easily decide the tank space is his, period. But it is also something that is increased with spawning. There is absolutely nothing you can do to alter their inherent behaviours or the extent to which the individual fish decide to enact their behaviours. Aside from separating them obviously.

My second question is; if and when the other 4 angels pair off, could this aggressive and territorial behaviour lessen?

Not likely at all. But, with a dominant pair established, the other angelfish may feel to threatened to risk anything. This too is dependent upon the individual fish. If one of the other males decides it has had enough and wants to spawn, and if it has no intention of allowing the existing dominant male to govern things, they will likely go at each other until one of them backs down, which by that stage is usually death. The tank space is just not large enough for natural interactions to play out without incident. But again, this depends upon the individual fish.

And my third and final question; I have put a grid type divider in my tank keeping the 2 paired fish away from the other 4 and things between the angels seem to have calmed down. There is a gap at the top and bottom where the fish can go and after the 4 angels being chased away everyone seems to know their place so I have basically created a much clearer territory divider. Could this help them to calm down a bit and then remove the divider?

Chances are the divider has to stay, or the fish (the pair or the others) moved out of the same tank. They may have seemed to settle down, but it is more likely a case of their recognition they cannot get at one another so why try. In the habitat, the dominant pair would have their "territory" and the others would stay well out of it.

 

[Zoeeannee]

Both. All angelfish males are territorial. The extent this plays out can depend upon factors like the individual fish, tank size, and other angelfish (the more there are, usually but not always the more they may get along--but never a guarantee. The dominant male here might easily decide the tank space is his, period. But it is also something that is increased with spawning. There is absolutely nothing you can do to alter their inherent behaviours or the extent to which the individual fish decide to enact their behaviours. Aside from separating them obviously.



Not likely at all. But, with a dominant pair established, the other angelfish may feel to threatened to risk anything. This too is dependent upon the individual fish. If one of the other males decides it has had enough and wants to spawn, and if it has no intention of allowing the existing dominant male to govern things, they will likely go at each other until one of them backs down, which by that stage is usually death. The tank space is just not large enough for natural interactions to play out without incident. But again, this depends upon the individual fish.



Chances are the divider has to stay, or the fish (the pair or the others) moved out of the same tank. They may have seemed to settle down, but it is more likely a case of their recognition they cannot get at one another so why try. In the habitat, the dominant pair would have their "territory" and the others would stay well out of it.

Thanks Byron, you have given me the answers I expected. My divider has space for them to travel through - 2 inches below and 2 inches above - which they have gone through but then moved back to their assigned sides (which are the sides of the tank they had seemed to have chosen prior to the divider) without anyone going “over the line” to fight so it seems to have helped.

My hope is that they can pair off and then settle down but I do have backup tanks if needed as I know angels can be pesky little buggers I’ve just never had them behave quite this aggressively toward one-another.

 

[Uberhoust]

Personal observation with my angels supports @Byron summary. I went the route of placing the pair into their own tank. I now keep juvenile angels in all my tanks and that has done more to lessen aggression more than anything else, just don't know what I am going to do when the juveniles grow larger. I have saturated the LFS with the little ones.

Don't be surprised if you have an aggressive female who is as aggressive as the males. I have had a couple of real aggressive females over the last couple of years.

I have a smaller main tank but once one pair established the others did not pair off until after the main pair had been moved.

 

[anewbie]

I have a 120 with 8 angels (it was 12); the dynamics have been interesting and annoying. I started with 4 (2m/2f pairs); the f of one pair decided she prefer the other male and well basically destroyed her mate. This left 1m/2f which sort of worked since the m was originally paired with the other female he didn't breed with her but he sort of intervened enough to give her solace. When the angels bred I kept 8 - so i had 12 for a while - turned out to be 3 females and 9 males. After a while the dynamics didn't work as a pair of the larger golds kept beating up their dad - so i removed them - and 2 others for different reasons (one developed the whirls and another never really developed correctly). Anyway fast forward i have 3f and 5 males - the original pair that is the m/f of the other 4 (and one outside female) a second strong pair that is the other original female and one of the new males (two unrelated fishes) and the 3rd f who cannot make up her mind and keeps switching partners but leaves the old mate alone as she switches (not a strong bond). The male that went with the odd female (2nd pair i mentioned) is one of the smaller males but a royal pain in the whatever. He is super territorial and super aggressive dive bombing everyone in the morning at feeding time. Not just once or twice but nearly every day all the time. When the original pair wants to breed they go off in the right back corner that is heavily planted which works well - no other angel goes there (no food and dense plants). This pair is the only one that can actually get the frys to the wriggler stage and free swimming. The other 2 females lay eggs but as far as I can tell they never get them to hatch.
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Anyway to answer your question it will depend a lot on the dynamic of the fishes as they mature. Also i think you are optimistic on having 4 pairs as angels can be picky about partners. Last but least i a bit amused that your females are so large - mine as substantially smaller than the male (well the largest female is paired with the smallest male and they are closer in size but the male is still bulkier and larger. this is a very outdated picture of my tank:

 

[Zoeeannee]

I have a 120 with 8 angels (it was 12); the dynamics have been interesting and annoying. I started with 4 (2m/2f pairs); the f of one pair decided she prefer the other male and well basically destroyed her mate. This left 1m/2f which sort of worked since the m was originally paired with the other female he didn't breed with her but he sort of intervened enough to give her solace. When the angels bred I kept 8 - so i had 12 for a while - turned out to be 3 females and 9 males. After a while the dynamics didn't work as a pair of the larger golds kept beating up their dad - so i removed them - and 2 others for different reasons (one developed the whirls and another never really developed correctly). Anyway fast forward i have 3f and 5 males - the original pair that is the m/f of the other 4 (and one outside female) a second strong pair that is the other original female and one of the new males (two unrelated fishes) and the 3rd f who cannot make up her mind and keeps switching partners but leaves the old mate alone as she switches (not a strong bond). The male that went with the odd female (2nd pair i mentioned) is one of the smaller males but a royal pain in the whatever. He is super territorial and super aggressive dive bombing everyone in the morning at feeding time. Not just once or twice but nearly every day all the time. When the original pair wants to breed they go off in the right back corner that is heavily planted which works well - no other angel goes there (no food and dense plants). This pair is the only one that can actually get the frys to the wriggler stage and free swimming. The other 2 females lay eggs but as far as I can tell they never get them to hatch.
-
Anyway to answer your question it will depend a lot on the dynamic of the fishes as they mature. Also i think you are optimistic on having 4 pairs as angels can be picky about partners. Last but least i a bit amused that your females are so large - mine as substantially smaller than the male (well the largest female is paired with the smallest male and they are closer in size but the male is still bulkier and larger. this is a very outdated picture of my tank:

View attachment 145634

God aren’t angels such funny pains in the arse!! I think I actually have an aggressive female who is trying to fight with the non-paired male - she seems to be territorial over her male and telling the other male to leave her alone

Can you please tell me what all of those beautiful large plants are? This is the exact set up I want. I have swords and jungle valis but would love to know what those plants are especially the one in the front right.

 

[Zoeeannee]

Personal observation with my angels supports @Byron summary. I went the route of placing the pair into their own tank. I now keep juvenile angels in all my tanks and that has done more to lessen aggression more than anything else, just don't know what I am going to do when the juveniles grow larger. I have saturated the LFS with the little ones.

Don't be surprised if you have an aggressive female who is as aggressive as the males. I have had a couple of real aggressive females over the last couple of years.

I have a smaller main tank but once one pair established the others did not pair off until after the main pair had been moved.

I think I do have an aggressive female (looking at the breeding tubes) who seems to be protective of her male and fighting off the other large male

I’m hopefully that they’ll all pair although I know this is probably optimistic. Otherwise I do have 2 other tanks to move them to if needed, it just means I have to hold off on adding non-angel-friendly fish until I know whether they need moving or not.

 

[Uberhoust]

I think I do have an aggressive female (looking at the breeding tubes) who seems to be protective of her male and fighting off the other large male

That is similar to mine, I thought she was a male until I witnessed her breeding. In the end the very aggressive female had to be housed on her own because she beat up her mate and any other angel in the tank. She also wasn't that great of a mom, she ate 4 or 5 batches of fry. I raised a number of fry this year but none were from her.

They are a pita fish but their individual personalities make up for it. The juveniles are particularly fun, they follow my hand around when I clean the tank.

 

[Zoeeannee]

I ab

That is similar to mine, I thought she was a male until I witnessed her breeding. In the end the very aggressive female had to be housed on her own because she beat up her mate and any other angel in the tank. She also wasn't that great of a mom, she ate 4 or 5 batches of fry. I raised a number of fry this year but none were from her.

They are a pita fish but their individual personalities make up for it. The juveniles are particularly fun, they follow my hand around when I clean the tank.

I absolutely LOVE the juveniles but they can become right little pricks when they start to grow up (a bit like when children become teenagers ) so I’m hoping that they just get over themselves and sort it out. I don’t want them to breed but if they do I have enough other fish who will eat their fry and I think my tank is busy enough for them not to be able to find a quiet spot to breed (I hope!)

 

[anewbie]

God aren’t angels such funny pains in the arse!! I think I actually have an aggressive female who is trying to fight with the non-paired male - she seems to be territorial over her male and telling the other male to leave her alone

Can you please tell me what all of those beautiful large plants are? This is the exact set up I want. I have swords and jungle valis but would love to know what those plants are especially the one in the front right.

Right front corner are java ferns; left side is large jungle val (the type with 1+ inch wide leaves); back left, middle and right are three different types of sword plants; the one in the middle is ruffle; the one on the left is a bit of an unknown - it was suppose to be purple aflame but obviously was not. The one on the right is a common baheri or similar. There is suppose to be a queen sword in the back left and every now and then i see a leaf but it isn't really visible in the picture. The middle front there is a crypt of some sort (was suppose to be wenditti but i don't believe it is; and next to it is a flame sword - these are both smaller plants).

 

[anewbie]

They are a pita fish but their individual personalities make up for it. The juveniles are particularly fun, they follow my hand around when I clean the tank.

Yea but when they get older they bite the hand that feeds them when you do water changes