Ammo Lock Question.....

[MattM1124]

Ok, about a month ago my ammonia level was very high so I started to use ammo lock to detoxify the harmful ammonia in the tank to keep my fish alive. Now I understand that now when testing the water for ammonia levels it will give me a false positive because the ammonia is still present in the tank but in the non toxic form.

My question is, should I continue to add Ammo Lock after every water change? Whenever I do a partial water change my ammonia levels are still high but I'm not sure if it's because there is still ammo lock in the water since I didn't remove it all or what. I'm worried that If I don't add more after the water change then if there is still harmful ammonia in the tank it will kill the fish.

Should I just do a few back to back water changes without adding ammo lock in and then see if the ammonia is still high or how should I handle this situation? I hope this question makes sense.

Basically, I think my ammonia levels are showing a false positive because of the ammo lock but I'm worried if I keep doing water changes but there really is still harmful ammonia in the water and I don;t add more Ammo Lock it will kill the fish.

thanks in advance,
Matt

 

[Amunet]

How about.... you do a water change, take out a sample of the water after the water change.. set that aside, add in the ammo lock to your tank.
Then say maybe after an hour test the water you set aside to see what the ammonia reading is?
Not really sure if that will show anything but it sounds good lol.
I have no idea if the stuff would cause you to get a false ammonia reading though. I'm sure someone else will know the answer to that one.

Is or was the tank cycled before you got the high ammonia reading that caused you to start using the ammolock? If not, what are your other readings? Such as nitrite and nitrate now?
If you're getting nitrite and nitrate readings, then it would seem that using the ammolock isn't really causing any harm and is still allowing the tank to cycle normally.

 

[shang hi]

ammo lock is not very good for the reason of it stil showes up on the test as toxic. i used stress zyme and a water chanege is i ever get high ammonia. it gets straight to the problem not just covering it up, it helps the filter bacteria, add more filter bacteria and will speed up the procesing of the ammonia.

shang hi

 

[Tolak]

Pittsburg probably uses chloramine in its water. Chloramine is a combination of chlorine & ammonia. When you use your regular water treatment you are splitting the chlorine from the ammonia, leaving you with ammonia. If your regular water treatment deals with ammonia along with chlorine & chloramine you are seeing ammonium with your water test. If the product you are using to treat the water doesn't state that it takes care of ammonia you are seeing ammonia with the test.

What product are you using to treat the water for chlorine & chloramine?

 

[MattM1124]

Pittsburg probably uses chloramine in its water. Chloramine is a combination of chlorine & ammonia. When you use your regular water treatment you are splitting the chlorine from the ammonia, leaving you with ammonia. If your regular water treatment deals with ammonia along with chlorine & chloramine you are seeing ammonium with your water test. If the product you are using to treat the water doesn't state that it takes care of ammonia you are seeing ammonia with the test.

What product are you using to treat the water for chlorine & chloramine?

Sorry for the delay in posting again. I use API Tap Water Conditioner. It states that it removes chlorine and breaks the chloramine bond. Could this product be showing that by ammonia is high when in fact it really isn't? If so what product should I use after doing a water change?

I also have done a few water changes from the last time I posted and didn't put the Ammo lock back in hoping the ammonia test would show no ammonia since I thought the ammo lock was giving me a false positive. My ammonia still shows high though. I don't see how this could be the harmful ammonia though since I have had my tank set up now for about 6 months now. I really need help with this high ammonia problem? Is it high ammonia or is a product I'm using giving me a false reading?

ammo lock is not very good for the reason of it stil showes up on the test as toxic. i used stress zyme and a water chanege is i ever get high ammonia. it gets straight to the problem not just covering it up, it helps the filter bacteria, add more filter bacteria and will speed up the procesing of the ammonia.

shang hi

Is stress zyme used just after performing a partial water change like to take out the chlorine from tap water? That stuff sounds pretty good. I may start using that rather then the API Tap Water Conditioner. How are those two different?

 

[Seed]

Check through this thread, especially towards the bottom. It may be of help.

http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...nce-On-Cycling/

 

[MattM1124]

Check through this thread, especially towards the bottom. It may be of help.

[URL="http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...nce-On-Cycling/"]http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...nce-On-Cycling/[/URL]

Thanks, so the product Amquel doesn't give any false readings. Do you think ammo lock would work the same way or aren't you sure? I don't see why my ammonia would be reading high. It has been constantly high for months now. Fish seem fine though. That's why I think it's a false positive. I usually do a 40%-50% water change every week or 2 weeks. Should I maybe do a 75% change and see what happens?

 

[Seed]

Check through this thread, especially towards the bottom. It may be of help.

<a href="http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...nce-On-Cycling/" target="_blank">http/www.fishforums.net/content/New-to-t...nce-On-Cycling/</a>

Thanks, so the product Amquel doesn't give any false readings. Do you think ammo lock would work the same way or aren't you sure? I don't see why my ammonia would be reading high. It has been constantly high for months now. Fish seem fine though. That's why I think it's a false positive. I usually do a 40%-50% water change every week or 2 weeks. Should I maybe do a 75% change and see what happens?

I'm not sure. But the procedure I outlined in that thread could be easily modified for your situation so you could see if your product is likely to give false readings or not. Or you could switch to what I was using. Running the experiment yourself is cheaper I'd wager...

 

[MattM1124]

Ya, thanks. I actually ran this experiment but only for a night lol. I actually just started this experiment again. I added some water to a glass and I added the tap water conditioner and the ammo lock. I mixed it in and I'm going to leave it sit a while longer and see if I get an ammonia reading. If I don't then I have no idea why my ammonia is so high.

 

[sheldon]

Hi Matt, I live in same area and going on 3 years with my aquarium and I have not had any ammonia problems since I first did my cycling. I do 25%-35% water change every 2 weeks.

 

[Seed]

I don't know, could be any number of things if your ammonia level is truly high and you aren't getting a false positive. I've personally noticed that I get a slight ammonia spike after large water changes, even though I use tap conditioner. I suspect that the conditioner doesn't react to completion, so with each bucket I put back in the tank there may be some unreacted chlorine that irritates the filter. But I dunno, the spike lasts less than a day so I haven't worried about it overly much, plus with small changes my test detects no spike, so generally I do 10-15% changes every other week, but that's just my solution to my situation.

 

[Tommy Gun]

Sorry to but in here, but how do you know that you are going to have an ammonia problem now? Have you stopped using the Ammo lock for a while yet? If not, you could try that. I am willing to bet that you don't need it anymore.
N

ammo lock is not very good for the reason of it stil showes up on the test as toxic. i used stress zyme and a water chanege is i ever get high ammonia.

No offense, but all of these products work the same; they just make ammonium out of ammonia. For some of us, that is masked because our test kit may not register ammonium. These products obviously don't have a way to actually remove ammonia from the water and it certainly isn't going to disappear magically. It just becomes something else.

Ammonium is not completely safe though - it is only less toxic than ammonia

If your regular water treatment deals with ammonia along with chlorine & chloramine you are seeing ammonium with your water test. If the product you are using to treat the water doesn't state that it takes care of ammonia you are seeing ammonia with the test.

I have to respectfully disagree with this to some extent as well since an ever increasing amount of ammonia (NH3) will pick up that extra hydrogen ion and become ammonium (NH4) as the water becomes more acidic. I would definitely agree with you as it applies to water that is more alkaline.

If you look on the back of your pH test kit, there may be a chart that you can use in conjunction with an ammonia test to understand the cummulative total of ammonia and ammonium is. However, this might not work when you are using a product like ammo lock so be sure about that first. Simply put, the ratio of ammonia and ammonium in water changes with pH. (this may be more commonly found on the low range pH test probably, I am not sure)

I don't know how testing the water when it is not in the tank or even before and after a water change would help you. Obviously the ammonia levels will progressively rise over time and you would be reducing that when you do the water change. That is all under the assumption that your tank is still completely uncycled.

The key here is to realize that ammonia and ammonium are both a viable food source for nitrifying bacteria so over time, your tank will cycle even if you are using a product like ammo lock until your test shows 0 ppm. The bottom line is that ammonia shouldnt be of much, if any concern in a cycled aquarium.

I've personally noticed that I get a slight ammonia spike after large water changes, even though I use tap conditioner.

You might want to look into that because it shouldn't happen. You are not taking out any significant amount benificial bacteria, if any at all, during a water change. They are not free swimming.

Could this product be showing that by ammonia is high when in fact it really isn't? If so what product should I use after doing a water change?

Hopefully this helps you understand ammonia a little bit. To sum all of that up...eventually you shouldn't need to worry about ammonia but when you are testing for ammonia, it is safe to assume that the only direction your test kit can mislead you is to make it seem like there is less ammonia in the water than there really is. In other words, if you have a test result of 1 ppm ammonia, you have at least that amount or more, but not less. I know that one resource on this forum states that certain products will go against what I have just said, but I really have a hard time believing that since I have been using Amquel for years and never found that I have a bunch of ammonia in my water all of a sudden. As far as I understand, Seed's experiment supports that notion as well.

 

[rdd1952]

The fact that you still have ammonia (or ammonium) present suggests that your tank isn't cycled and you still have a problem even if the reading you are getting is all non-toxic. If you are still getting a climbing ammonia reading, while I am not a proponent of using chemicals to solve (or patch) problems, you most likely still need the Ammo-Lock. The test kit you have measures total ammonia, ammonia + ammonium, so you are indeed seeing both the toxic and non-toxic. There are some problems with using AL though that you need to be aware of. First, if the ammonia is still present, the AL only works on what is present at the time it is added (up to 3% per dose so if you have 5 ppm of ammonia, you need to add 2 doses) not subsequent ammonia produced by the fish before the next dose. Second, I'm sure that some ammonia is being processed now thus leaving you with nitrite. The AL will have no effect on nitrite which is just as harmful and deadly to your fish.

My suggestion would be to start doing partial water changes of 15 to 25 percent, several a day if needed, with the sole purpose of getting the ammonia and nitrite below .25 ppm and continue to do them, as needed, to keep the levels there until the tank cycles. Obviously, any level of ammonia and nitrite is harmful and your goal is to get them both to zero but that won't happen until the tank cycles so you are just trying to minimize them and their effects. Contrary to popular belief, this will not lengthen the cycling time of your tank. It may actually shorten it very slightly (see this thread if you have questions about that). You can continue to use the AL to detoxify the ammonia so that you at least are really only dealing with one toxin and not two except for the ammonia produced after you dose the tank.

 

[MattM1124]

My suggestion would be to start doing partial water changes of 15 to 25 percent, several a day if needed, with the sole purpose of getting the ammonia and nitrite below .25 ppm and continue to do them, as needed, to keep the levels there until the tank cycles. Obviously, any level of ammonia and nitrite is harmful and your goal is to get them both to zero but that won't happen until the tank cycles so you are just trying to minimize them and their effects. Contrary to popular belief, this will not lengthen the cycling time of your tank. It may actually shorten it very slightly (see this thread if you have questions about that). You can continue to use the AL to detoxify the ammonia so that you at least are really only dealing with one toxin and not two except for the ammonia produced after you dose the tank.
[/quote]


Thanks for the info. I'm going to start doing several water changes a day from now on until the ammonia is gone. What is the benefit of doing 15-20 percent water changed several times a day rather then say 50% several times day? Also when I do these water changes should I add some AL back in to ensure that the harmful ammonia isn't going to kill the fish or should I just keep doing these water changes until there is no ammonia present?

The way I've been doing it in the past is I whenever I do a water change, I usually do about half the water. Then when I test it right after it still shows ammonia. It really seems like no matter how many water changes I do the ammonia will always be high. Any suggestions on why my tank would still not be cycled? I've had it set up for about 6 months now.

 

[Tolak]

After 2 1/2 months you should not be getting a constant reading for ammonia. Your test kit could be out of date, try taking a sample to your lfs for a test, as test chemicals do go bad. Municipal water companies tend to increase the amount of disinfectants they treat the water with in the winter, if you are no neuteralizing all of the chlorine, and especially the chloramine, this could be affecting the growth of nitrifying bacteria. The easiest way to deal with this is doubling up on dechlorinator.

Tommy Gun is right, in that ammonia will convert to ammonium with lower pH values. From what I know most of the municipally supplied water in the central US has a pH above 7.0, and is on the hard side, I'l hazard to guess your water supply is no different.

I know if I do one of my usual 50% to 80% water changes & test for ammonia right afterwards I'll get an ammonia reading, which is actually ammonium, since I'm double dosing with Prime. This reading is zero in 24 hours or less, the nitrifying bacteria take care of it. This makes me wonder what make/model of filter you are running, and what your maintenance procedure is for this filter. With a healthy colony of nitrifying bacteria your filter should have no problem dealing with the ammonia/ammonium spike that comes from large water changes using chloriminated tap water that has been treated with a good water conditioner.