Am I Loosing My Breeding Ram?!

[Rorie]

In my breeding tank I have the 2 parent rams and the fry which is about a week old.

Yesterday the parents were at opposite sides of the tank and were not putting as much effort into keeping the fry together. Both parents have lost most of their colours – no doubt due to stress of parenting.

Today on of the rams is hovering around the top of the tank (normally they are at the bottom!) in a vertical position. When it goes back down, the other ram...em...rams it out of the way, so it goes back to the top of the tank into its vertical position.

I put my finger in the tank, and it did react and swam fine and fast.

Any ideas what is up?!

 

[KittyKat]

Water readings?

If I remember correctly, your tank is bare, so it could also be stress. It may help to toss in some plants.

 

[Rorie]

Water readings?

If I remember correctly, your tank is bare, so it could also be stress. It may help to toss in some plants.

At work just now, but will check water when i get home. Though with daily water changes, and the fry still doing fine, i wouldnt have thought it would be a water quality problem.

I'll go in past the shops and get some plants on the way home...

 

[coldcazzie]

Have you any shelter in the tank at all Rorie? Caves? Wood? Maybe a slate cave or 2 might be of help? At least there will be some shelter even if not plants.

Or you could cover with a towel/bin liners on the sides? Not pretty I know, but the darkness might help keep stress levels down.

Can you not put the parents back in your main tank? Leave the fry alone in the tank? I know you said you were hoping they'd breed again, but for the moment while this lot of fry grow out surely it would make sense to put the parents back in the main tank? Then at least they've got shelter etc...

 

[Rorie]

Have you any shelter in the tank at all Rorie? Caves? Wood? Maybe a slate cave or 2 might be of help? At least there will be some shelter even if not plants.

Or you could cover with a towel/bin liners on the sides? Not pretty I know, but the darkness might help keep stress levels down.

Can you not put the parents back in your main tank? Leave the fry alone in the tank? I know you said you were hoping they'd breed again, but for the moment while this lot of fry grow out surely it would make sense to put the parents back in the main tank? Then at least they've got shelter etc...

Hmm, i maybe should, but surly if i put in loads of hiding places etc, small caves and such, it should help? They should be able to deal with being in a breeding tank if there are hiding places?

Discus obviously breed in a tank with the bare minimum in it. I guess thats not the same for these? I think i will add some things in, but no other fish to give the fry a chance! Maybe i should move the rams to the main tank, but i thought it made sence to keep them in the breeding tank to save stressing them by moving them every time they spawn?

 

[KittyKat]

Discus obviously breed in a tank with the bare minimum in it. I guess thats not the same for these? I think i will add some things in, but no other fish to give the fry a chance! Maybe i should move the rams to the main tank, but i thought it made sence to keep them in the breeding tank to save stressing them by moving them every time they spawn?

A bare tank is a stressful environment for most fish, discus included. Discus only breed in those because that is where people put them, not through choice yes, rams find it more difficult to deal with such an environment.

A clean environment and good water quality are best for fry growth, but neither is synonymous with a sterile tank. For example, I have found a good compromise to be a bare bottom (or thin layer of sand), which is easy to clean, along with lots of planted pots (and even plant pots) and some bogwood to be a good environment for most cichlids. Those with smaller fry can even benefit from mulm, so even the bottom cleaning requirements are different there.

 

[Athena]

Hi Rorie,

Think I did mention in your other post on this subject that these adults would suffer eventually if left in that tank - they are sensitive little fish and will only flourish if they are really happy in their environment.

Leaving them in such a bare tank with nowhere to hide when they feel threatened will make them unhappy. When they have fry they are constantly on the defensive - every movement going on outside of that tank that will appear to be a threat to the fry and stress the parents as they will have nowhere to hide them. In a tank with plants/caves/rocks/wood etc, the parent would normally dig a pit for the fry to swim in, and then they will pull plants around the nest as a shelter from prying eyes or they will situate them behind rocks etc.

When a mated pair of cichlids are stressed it can cause them to "separate" - one of the partners shuns or bullies the other - sometimes the separation becomes permanent, other times they will reunite after a week or two if conditions around them improve. It could also be that the fish being spurned was seen as a threat to the fry by the other parent and so has been banished from their territory.

As suggested before, I would put the parent rams back in the tank they originally were in, or at least move the one that is being bullied and in a few days time move the other one over and see if the pair get together again (might take a day or two, so don't expect them to rush into each others open arms (I mean fins!) LOL.

To be honest, it's a little upsetting to see fish being kept in very clinical conditions, like they are in some pet shops. Surely you will want to keep your fish in as pleasant environment as you can possibly make it for them?

Keep them happy and they will reward you with endless batches of fry!!

All the best - Athena

 

[coldcazzie]

Discus obviously breed in a tank with the bare minimum in it. I guess thats not the same for these?

Just because they can and will do it, doesn't mean they are happy about it. I could give birth in a bare, sterile room in a hospital, but that doesn't mean I'd be happy doing it! You could take your cat/dog to the vets if they were going to have a litter, and put them in a bare cage, and they would give birth because that's how nature works, but it doesn't mean they'd be comfortable being there. With other animals (including humans), being out of the environment they are comfortable in while birthing results in adrenaline levels which work against the natural hormones needed for birthing/early parenting. Now I'm not saying that a bolivian ram is directly comparable with a horse or a cat/dog or a human, but surely you can see the sort of extrapolation I'm making here?! just because they are fish doesn't mean they don't get stressed by their environment.

 

[Rorie]

Points taken, but there is still the argument that if a fish is not happy, it will not spawn. Discus are a prime example of being put in the most basic of tanks and spawning regularly!

I have seen it done several ways, but i am just looking for the way that works for me. I have about 40 fry (even after a load died in the ice cream tub tank), so i hope i will get some lovely fish out of them.

I have now added caves and plants to the tank with the fry in, and have moved both parents to my main tank, where they have LOADS of room, plants, hiding places and friends! Their colours have come back already!

Thanks for your help - i in no mean meant to ignore advice or what ever, but wanted to try other things which have worked for others in the past.

 

[minnnt]

Hi Rorie, i think you have done the correct thing by returning the parents to the main tank. Your fry should survive in the breeding tank now. It was suggested to me to keep the tank bare bottomed, which i had already tried but found it looked too messy with fish waste and uneaten food.

 

[coldcazzie]

Thanks for your help - i in no mean meant to ignore advice or what ever, but wanted to try other things which have worked for others in the past.

Is ok, I was not offended, and I'm sure KittyKat won't have been either glad they're colouring back up again in your main tank. I'm sure at least some of your fry will make it

 

[Rorie]

I just got through some of 'the best' fry food....or so the review say.

http/www.ta-aquaculture.co.uk/index.htm

I got the 5-50 micros, which basically is a powder. I put some into the tank and it just vanished as it was like a dust that dissolved. does anybody have experience of this, or anything similar to it? I know my fry are small, but will they some how absorb this food? I hear putting in egg yolk is also good, which must have the same effect?

I have a load of brine shrimp on the go, so hopefully i wil get something useful out of it this time.....

 

[fluttermoth]

Points taken, but there is still the argument that if a fish is not happy, it will not spawn. Discus are a prime example of being put

Without meaning to butt in, and obviously not being deliberately imflammatory, this just isn't true.

Very many animals and plants breed more when they're stressed and unhappy, the evolutionary reason for this being that if you're in danger, then so might your whole generation/species be, so you'd better make as many babies as possible in the hope that at least some survive.

 

[KittyKat]

Points taken, but there is still the argument that if a fish is not happy, it will not spawn. Discus are a prime example of being put

Without meaning to butt in, and obviously not being deliberately imflammatory, this just isn't true.

Very many animals and plants breed more when they're stressed and unhappy, the evolutionary reason for this being that if you're in danger, then so might your whole generation/species be, so you'd better make as many babies as possible in the hope that at least some survive.

+1 and wasn't offended.

Experimentation is fine.. but harming fish is not, please think twice about their environment next time.

[On a side note, I find that replacing "would the fish like" with "would I like" works quite well, to figure out what a good environment is. For example "would I like to spend my life in an empty glass box?" or "would I like to live in the dark?", and so on. Unsurprisingly, fish have the same abstract requirements as we do, as do most other animals. The details are different, of course: we have furniture, they have rocks, bodwood and plants; we have people food, they have fish food; we have sunlight, they have artificial light...]

 

[jpeterson]

Points taken, but there is still the argument that if a fish is not happy, it will not spawn. Discus are a prime example of being put

Without meaning to butt in, and obviously not being deliberately imflammatory, this just isn't true.

Very many animals and plants breed more when they're stressed and unhappy, the evolutionary reason for this being that if you're in danger, then so might your whole generation/species be, so you'd better make as many babies as possible in the hope that at least some survive.

+1 and wasn't offended.

Experimentation is fine.. but harming fish is not, please think twice about their environment next time.

[On a side note, I find that replacing "would the fish like" with "would I like" works quite well, to figure out what a good environment is. For example "would I like to spend my life in an empty glass box?" or "would I like to live in the dark?", and so on. Unsurprisingly, fish have the same abstract requirements as we do, as do most other animals. The details are different, of course: we have furniture, they have rocks, bodwood and plants; we have people food, they have fish food; we have sunlight, they have artificial light...]

"we have sunlight, they have artificial light..." - Yes, only if we keep them in little glass boxes. However, most have real sunlight when in their proper environment.